View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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    48 71.64%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #231
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    And in the 1920s when the FBI or law learned where a mobster or gang leader was, they set up a firing line and just gun him down.

    Very efficient.
    As in "Bonnie and Clyde," starring Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  2. #232
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    And in the 1920s when the FBI or law learned where a mobster or gang leader was, they set up a firing line and just gun him down.

    Very efficient.
    I guess the good old days when law enforcement could shoot first and ask questions later are gone.

  3. #233
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    You have a hard time with variables, don't you? There are people for which there are questions of guilt. Probably most. If there is enough evidence to believe they would be convicted, then and only then should there be a trial. However, the number of people I would want arrested and sent to jail is maybe 1/10th as many as who are. In my law enforcement role (F-W, not beat cop) I almost never write anyone a ticket and arrest even less. If I feel there really should be a "punishment" as a lesson to that person and others by example, usually I have an option (not required) alternative self-imposed punishment to modern legaleze the person can pick. I'll give them a few minutes to decide. If not, then I go the modern legal ticket/arrest/seizure/jail/fines/trial route. They always have taken the alternative, no exceptions.

    But there also are times where guilt is not a question at all and the ongoing violence, destruction and death the person is ongingly causing known. Bonny and Clyde and Machine Gun Kelly two examples. Since both bragged publicly, what question of guilt?

    The "old west" is a different circumstance as it was where the rule of law was few and far between. Actually, back then, jail sentences were much shorter than now - check it out. The Texas Rangers did not hunt burglars and shoplifters. They hunted killers, had few Rangers to do so with, and accordingly to be effective their fear factors had to be high. It was that fear that is the reason there was any rule of law at all.

    "I've known men that needed killing but I never knew a horse that needed stealing." Judge Roy Bean

    Now too many people allow their platitudes to run ahead of realities even in the most extreme of circumstances. Word are just words, nothing more. It is alway reality that is what matters. I have no problem with people getting a fair trial. I hope they get one if a trial is warranted.

    I'm really not into punishing people for "immoral acts."
    Right, I think that is a completely fair way of looking at it. If you see someone with a gun yelling, "Time to die B***!", then obviously the man is guilty, but if someone gets caught with drugs in their car, they should have a criminal trial because the drugs may or may not be theirs, I believe. But if someone comes into a police station and says to a cop, "I murdered 12 children", although he is a monster, he shouldn't be shot because he is no longer committing a violent act at the time. NO ones life is in jeopardy if he lives to draw another breath because he is now in our failed justice system.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Right. No argument from me.... but here's the problem: You're postulating that at no point in this chain of events/decisions/thoughts, do we have an opportunity to change the outcome.

    That simply isn't so. If we were simply slaves to our baser impulses we'd still be living in caves and cowering in fear of lightning. If behavior were purely deterministic then no theory of deterministic behavior could be devised by those suffering under such limitations.

    People do change. I had a BIL who was an alcoholic; he hasn't had a drink in over a decade once he decided he was done.

    I grew up with a young man named W.F. His parents were alcoholic petty thieves; his brother grew up to be the same. He was rough as a young man but he determined to do better than his family had and became a productive and law-abiding citizen.

    People are not robots. We are subject to certain influences and we subject ourselves to some influences, but we also make choices.
    Well, I don't know if you read my single blog post on the subject, there was a case where, long story short, two men set a house on fire after tying two children to the bed and they died of smoke inhalation. Later in a police interview they asked him, "Why didn't you untie the girls before you burned the house down?" with which the assailant replied, "It never crossed my mind." Where is the free will there?
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    So? We could trace events all the way back to the Big Bang too. Just blame it all either on randomness or on God - take your pick. Can't punish a person because of bad luck at birth or because God is cruel.

    I hope you are not thinking of going into psychology as a profession. There many topics on this forum that I have little experience or knowledge of and, accordingly, I don't post on most subjections. But from what I can tell, of those on this forum I am way up the chart of those of childhood abuse experience and as an adult a propensity towards doing violence. It is possible I have been detained, questioned and arrested in the past by police for incidences of assault and aggravated assault as a suspect more than most on the forum, though no convictions although it also unquestioned or denied it was me. I think I'm the only person on the forum stating that unless facts change I think Zimmerman is one of the good guys and that I am untroubled by Martin's death. On the far extremes, circumstantially I am extremely anti-violence and extremely pro-violence.

    And you can't deal with me at all. So this is a field you really should not go into.
    joko, first of all saying that I shouldn't go into psychology is probably one of the most naive things I have heard. I don't currently hold a PHD in psychology so how can I be educated on the subject? I am taking psychology classes, and no not as a major, or at least not as of yet, but that in no means makes me a professional and I haven't claimed to be a professional. Most of this I'm posting is based on philosophy and not psychology.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  6. #236
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Well, I don't know if you read my single blog post on the subject, there was a case where, long story short, two men set a house on fire after tying two children to the bed and they died of smoke inhalation. Later in a police interview they asked him, "Why didn't you untie the girls before you burned the house down?" with which the assailant replied, "It never crossed my mind." Where is the free will there?
    The free will not to have started off with kidnapping and arson and murder to begin with.


    Most of the time people don't do these things in a vacuum. They commit small crimes and get away with it. They commit somewhat larger crimes and mostly get away with it. They get to thinking they're never going to get busted for a big one, and start going to extremes and doing things like burning little girls in houses. It never occurred to them because they left their humanity behind somewhere along that chain of choices that lead to that moment.

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  7. #237
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The free will not to have started off with kidnapping and arson and murder to begin with.


    Most of the time people don't do these things in a vacuum. They commit small crimes and get away with it. They commit somewhat larger crimes and mostly get away with it. They get to thinking they're never going to get busted for a big one, and start going to extremes and doing things like burning little girls in houses. It never occurred to them because they left their humanity behind somewhere along that chain of choices that lead to that moment.
    Okay, so lets start with the small heinous crime. Were their other factors when they decided to try pot for the first time? Were they being influenced by any other outside behavior? While I agree that they shouldn't of started off with arson/kidnapping/murder, where did this idea come from? I mean how maddening would it be if you just suddenly got the brilliant idea to call up your friend and tell him about a home intrusion you would want to do. This, I think, paints more of a picture that our thoughts/actions are random and should be surprising even to us.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Something that I thought of when I was taking my shower. Would it, and part of this is me making something up, been out of character for Joshua Hayes, when called up by his career criminal partner, to respond to Steven when asked if he wanted to go steal some cash for him to of responded that he would prefer to give up the life of a criminal?
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    As in "Bonnie and Clyde," starring Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway.
    Or the actual Bonnie and Clyde. The movie made them to be pretty cool people, didn't it?

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    joko, first of all saying that I shouldn't go into psychology is probably one of the most naive things I have heard. I don't currently hold a PHD in psychology so how can I be educated on the subject? I am taking psychology classes, and no not as a major, or at least not as of yet, but that in no means makes me a professional and I haven't claimed to be a professional. Most of this I'm posting is based on philosophy and not psychology.
    I am shocked, stunned, to learn you are taking psychology classes. Who woulda guessed?

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