View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #221
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Sigh. You're looking at this from a one-dimension view.

    Yes, lots of criminals are not intelligent. Many come from bad backgrounds. Stipulated.

    But there are some who are intelligent, well-educated, come from good family, grew up middle-class with work-ethic and so forth, law-abiding friends and neighbors... and the day comes when they decide to do something truly heinous and unlawful and there's nothing in their background to point to.

    On the flip side, I've known people who grew up in broken druggie homes, in violent druggie/gang neighborhoods, with brothers and sisters who succumbed to it all, yet these individuals rose above their roots and worked within the law and got out of there and made something of themselves.

    Choice.


    If there is no choice, what do we need with a forebrain?
    The forebrain (Pre-frontal cortex) is where consciousness exist. Everything else is subconscious. Anyways, I understand where you are coming from, look at it this way. For you to make a decision their is a reason, I'm hungry, I eat food, I'm happy, I debate politics, I'm thirsty, I get water, I'm tired, I sleep, I'm choosing a shirt, I choose one that matches (Unless you don't care about your appearance, you choose one seemingly at random). Where does that randomness come from. Obviously our thoughts can't just be random or it would seem that we are a sail caught in the wind. Our own thoughts would appear random to even us. Look in the criminal world, they are always looking for a motive. Do you think that all crimes have a motive? If so, then you have a chain of events that lead back to a cause to their criminal action.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  2. #222
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Dog View Post
    I'am not in favor of the Stand Your Ground law. It could be used to push for "justifiable" homicides. JMO
    I am very much in favor of Stand Your Ground Law. It will protect a person that has the misfortune of having to use deadly force to protect herself.
    As a dreamer of dreams and a travellin' man, I have chalked up many a mile.
    Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks and I've learned much from both of their styles!

  3. #223
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    As an adult I've had guns and more often knives pulled on me. Yet there is only one time as an adult I pulled a gun on anyone, closest I came to killing someone, and that person was unarmed.

    There are only a few things of topics I feel strongly about that may come on the forum. 1.) sexual assault, assaults against children and - circumstantially - non-sexual violence against women; 2.) pro-choice and 3.) gay rights, although not militantly.

    I arrived at the scene of an extremely violent sexual assault of a young woman I knew extremely well, the assault fortunately stopped by three others - two men and a woman - only seconds before. Walking into that scene and realizing the who and what of it, I threw the assailant against the hard wall so hard he probably dazed unconscious momentarily and in the same motion drew my 45 chambering and cocking it to against his head. But the woman cried out louding in terrible pain, shifting my focus to her from my own rage and I felt that loudness of the gunshot would add more shock and stress in what was to become her battling for her life in the hospital, the injuries that great.

    The first two arriving local officers who also knew her, beat him unconscious - chalking it up to "resisting arrest" in their report. No one cared.

    This isn't NYC where than SOB as a first time offender probably would get 6 years and then be released in 14 months on shock probation after some sex offenders counseling program. He got the max on 3 sentences - aggravated sexual assault, attempted murder and burglary of a residence - each to run consecutively - which is Florida adds up to forever - and the judge and prosecutor both adding letters to the file for any future probation board that due to the nature of the crime he should never be granted probation. After sentencing back in his cell, in front of many officers, he was told that should he ever somehow get released decades from now and return here, they WILL kill him.

    Although the majority of adults are now senior Yankee transplates, the generational old good ole boys and gals still have their ways they always have had. There are certain crimes, most notable extreme child injury, for which it is well understood that IF the cops get to that person first - but then later if that person ever came back here he would be killed and fed to the wild hogs as a missing person. Its always been that way for certain extreme crimes against children and women - generation to generation. And to be honest, I'm perfectly fine with that, but - circumstantially - I've always believed in jungle law in extreme instances anyway.

    Were I on a jury and a person killed someone he saw someone released from prison who had AGGRAVATEDLY (not statutory/date) raped his wife, daughter, mother, or the same of a best friend or close relative, there's not a chance in hell I'd vote to convict. I'd call it "temporary insanity" and maybe when done and out of the courtroom thank that person for removing that person from our community.

    The repeat rate for sex offenders is very high and even higher if against children.
    Back in the days when men were men and threats to civilzation were eliminated, 95% of the Texas Rangers' prisoners were "killed while attempting to escape."
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
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  4. #224
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    Back in the days when men were men and threats to civilzation were eliminated, 95% of the Texas Rangers' prisoners were "killed while attempting to escape."
    Are you implying that they said, "He's coming right for us", just so they could shoot him, or did the escape attempt actually occur?
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    Back in the days when men were men and threats to civilzation were eliminated, 95% of the Texas Rangers' prisoners were "killed while attempting to escape."
    And in the 1920s when the FBI or law learned where a mobster or gang leader was, they set up a firing line and just gun him down.

    Very efficient.

  6. #226
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    And in the 1920s when the FBI or law learned where a mobster or gang leader was, they set up a firing line and just gun him down.

    Very efficient.
    Since then we have done immoral things, I guess to you, like giving people fair trials, giving people the right to defend themselves, and giving people the right to a jail cell when they are convicted and proven that they were a mobster. If you go back to your way of thinking joko, we will end up with salem witch trials. IE, we will just shoot a suspect and then say, "Oh ****! We gotta kill someone else now because he was wrong."
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  7. #227
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    The forebrain (Pre-frontal cortex) is where consciousness exist. Everything else is subconscious. Anyways, I understand where you are coming from, look at it this way. For you to make a decision their is a reason, I'm hungry, I eat food, I'm happy, I debate politics, I'm thirsty, I get water, I'm tired, I sleep, I'm choosing a shirt, I choose one that matches (Unless you don't care about your appearance, you choose one seemingly at random). Where does that randomness come from. Obviously our thoughts can't just be random or it would seem that we are a sail caught in the wind. Our own thoughts would appear random to even us. Look in the criminal world, they are always looking for a motive. Do you think that all crimes have a motive? If so, then you have a chain of events that lead back to a cause to their criminal action.
    So? We could trace events all the way back to the Big Bang too. Just blame it all either on randomness or on God - take your pick. Can't punish a person because of bad luck at birth or because God is cruel.

    I hope you are not thinking of going into psychology as a profession. There many topics on this forum that I have little experience or knowledge of and, accordingly, I don't post on most subjections. But from what I can tell, of those on this forum I am way up the chart of those of childhood abuse experience and as an adult a propensity towards doing violence. It is possible I have been detained, questioned and arrested in the past by police for incidences of assault and aggravated assault as a suspect more than most on the forum, though no convictions although it also unquestioned or denied it was me. I think I'm the only person on the forum stating that unless facts change I think Zimmerman is one of the good guys and that I am untroubled by Martin's death. On the far extremes, circumstantially I am extremely anti-violence and extremely pro-violence.

    And you can't deal with me at all. So this is a field you really should not go into.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-06-12 at 01:35 PM.

  8. #228
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    The forebrain (Pre-frontal cortex) is where consciousness exist. Everything else is subconscious. Anyways, I understand where you are coming from, look at it this way. For you to make a decision their is a reason, I'm hungry, I eat food, I'm happy, I debate politics, I'm thirsty, I get water, I'm tired, I sleep, I'm choosing a shirt, I choose one that matches (Unless you don't care about your appearance, you choose one seemingly at random). Where does that randomness come from. Obviously our thoughts can't just be random or it would seem that we are a sail caught in the wind. Our own thoughts would appear random to even us. Look in the criminal world, they are always looking for a motive. Do you think that all crimes have a motive? If so, then you have a chain of events that lead back to a cause to their criminal action.

    Right. No argument from me.... but here's the problem: You're postulating that at no point in this chain of events/decisions/thoughts, do we have an opportunity to change the outcome.

    That simply isn't so. If we were simply slaves to our baser impulses we'd still be living in caves and cowering in fear of lightning. If behavior were purely deterministic then no theory of deterministic behavior could be devised by those suffering under such limitations.

    People do change. I had a BIL who was an alcoholic; he hasn't had a drink in over a decade once he decided he was done.

    I grew up with a young man named W.F. His parents were alcoholic petty thieves; his brother grew up to be the same. He was rough as a young man but he determined to do better than his family had and became a productive and law-abiding citizen.

    People are not robots. We are subject to certain influences and we subject ourselves to some influences, but we also make choices.

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  9. #229
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Since then we have done immoral things, I guess to you, like giving people fair trials, giving people the right to defend themselves, and giving people the right to a jail cell when they are convicted and proven that they were a mobster. If you go back to your way of thinking joko, we will end up with salem witch trials. IE, we will just shoot a suspect and then say, "Oh ****! We gotta kill someone else now because he was wrong."
    You have a hard time with variables, don't you? There are people for which there are questions of guilt. Probably most. If there is enough evidence to believe they would be convicted, then and only then should there be a trial. However, the number of people I would want arrested and sent to jail is maybe 1/10th as many as who are. In my law enforcement role (F-W, not beat cop) I almost never write anyone a ticket and arrest even less. If I feel there really should be a "punishment" as a lesson to that person and others by example, usually I have an option (not required) alternative self-imposed punishment to modern legaleze the person can pick. I'll give them a few minutes to decide. If not, then I go the modern legal ticket/arrest/seizure/jail/fines/trial route. They always have taken the alternative, no exceptions.

    But there also are times where guilt is not a question at all and the ongoing violence, destruction and death the person is ongingly causing known. Bonny and Clyde and Machine Gun Kelly two examples. Since both bragged publicly, what question of guilt?

    The "old west" is a different circumstance as it was where the rule of law was few and far between. Actually, back then, jail sentences were much shorter than now - check it out. The Texas Rangers did not hunt burglars and shoplifters. They hunted killers, had few Rangers to do so with, and accordingly to be effective their fear factors had to be high. It was that fear that is the reason there was any rule of law at all.

    "I've known men that needed killing but I never knew a horse that needed stealing." Judge Roy Bean

    Now too many people allow their platitudes to run ahead of realities even in the most extreme of circumstances. Word are just words, nothing more. It is alway reality that is what matters. I have no problem with people getting a fair trial. I hope they get one if a trial is warranted.

    I'm really not into punishing people for "immoral acts."
    Last edited by joko104; 04-06-12 at 01:53 PM.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Are you implying that they said, "He's coming right for us", just so they could shoot him, or did the escape attempt actually occur?
    Criminal scum were executed in cold blood. Sometimes the Rangers would even give their word that they'd let a criminal live if he gave them some information, then executed him anyway. Our species is criticized for killing our own. But the human enemies of human progress should be considered traitors to the species and eliminated, just like cancers are not considered as part of our bodies even though they literally are.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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