View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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    48 71.64%
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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #191
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Not everyone who is born into an abusive home becomes a criminal. People choose criminal behavior.
    Right, but being born into an abusive home increases the probability that they will become a criminal/drug addict. One only need to walk into a prison to figure this out. Their are other things at play here as I have mentioned. Genes, chemical balances, influences from school, and say a friend that does drugs... All of this are circumstantial, the limit on what friends you can have are limited by the friends in your neighborhood. Not to mention, if both your parents are drug addicts you will have common grounds with this friend, and sense that common ground has been set I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for the duo to experiment with drugs at a later age. The point is, if you are born into an abusive home, the seed has been planted.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Drawing happy faces with crayons?
    Someone in a positive mental state wouldn't make the choice to go and rob/mug someone or smoke crack... Someone in a positive mental state would seem "out of character" to do something like this.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  3. #193
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You can't force someone to fix their mental and emotional problems. Only they can do that, of their own free will. You can place limits on their negative behaviors, but this amounts to little more than training animals to behave. As long as they are behaving, I don't care if they *fix* their problems. That is an issue that only they can deal with.
    Wrong because to someone in a bad state of mind, they don't know that their is a better alternative that in a sense what they are doing is a destruction of themselves. They also do not know that the grass is greener on the other side. These things never enter into their consciousness. If that is the case, that the choice never "comes to them", then they could never know. Although, conflicting beliefs do arise. So for a person who is an alcoholic. Maybe they want to quit ultimately but their is still that primal drive to drink. So they lose this battle in the moment because of the conflicting beliefs. Sort of, one over powers the other at a given time of the day.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Right, but being born into an abusive home increases the probability that they will become a criminal/drug addict. One only need to walk into a prison to figure this out. Their are other things at play here as I have mentioned. Genes, chemical balances, influences from school, and say a friend that does drugs... All of this are circumstantial, the limit on what friends you can have are limited by the friends in your neighborhood. Not to mention, if both your parents are drug addicts you will have common grounds with this friend, and sense that common ground has been set I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for the duo to experiment with drugs at a later age. The point is, if you are born into an abusive home, the seed has been planted.
    Sure, if you didn't have parents who helped you make good decisions, then you're more likely to make poor ones. They're still decisions that the individual makes.

    Human beings are more than a collection of experiences, genes, and chemicals.

    You can work with someone and try to help them make better decisions, but in the end, it's their decisions that count. They are free to choose the good or the bad.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Wrong because to someone in a bad state of mind, they don't know that their is a better alternative that in a sense what they are doing is a destruction of themselves. They also do not know that the grass is greener on the other side. These things never enter into their consciousness. If that is the case, that the choice never "comes to them", then they could never know. Although, conflicting beliefs do arise. So for a person who is an alcoholic. Maybe they want to quit ultimately but their is still that primal drive to drink. So they lose this battle in the moment because of the conflicting beliefs. Sort of, one over powers the other at a given time of the day.
    Their "issues" are theirs to resolve. My only concern is whether or not they can live within a civil society.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  6. #196
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Nothing I wrote even hints that a person should be "punished because they had the bad luck of being born with a low IQ and the even more misfortune of being born into an abusive home." I wrote that a person is responsible for his or her own actions. If there is judgment - as YOU put it - is should be based upon ACTIONS, not a person's subconscious.

    Mostly, I'm saying you don't have a clue in reality what you are talking about. People can find books including by psychologists that say anything including exact opposites. There are centuries of books by philsophers and "psychologists" explaining the moral justifications of using physical torture as punishment, claiming that torture is more just and rational as punishment for all persons involved including the offender rather than prison. A person can pick whatever books they want. They prove nothing at all.

    In my youth I saw and experienced more "abuse" than anyone would believe if I wrote 1/1ooth of it and it had been going on for nearly a century. Of those who survive it - and many did not - the result was 1 of 3 kinds of people "psychologically":

    1. Defeated, broken people. They have no will power whatsoever, are totally submissive to everyone and everything, and so incapable of making a decision just picking what they want off a restaurant menu is an impossible task.

    2. Violent. When becoming adult (not necessarily 18) it is their turn to have the power of violence. Those are exorbitantly dangerous men and should be destroyed. Calculating in all ways, they would easily come to appear to be "cured," but the are time bombs with hair triggers. They willl do what was done to them and worse. They can not be cured the the horror, fear, pain and destruction of other people they will do can never be portrayed in any words and doing so is pleasurable to them in an entertainment and ego-stoking sense. No one who has not seen what such men will do can not possibly wrap their head around that reality.

    3. Resistant. When becoming adult, they will absolutely oppose such violence of men and will do so proactively and with a determination to be more "powerful" than such evil men. It can become the priority of their life. Violent men are "the enemy." Those are men you should never prick around because they won't take intimidation again, will never be submissive again, will not tolerate anyone poising potential harm to them (or their own people of their life) and they are the worst person to do violence towards children (and possibly women) around. That is who I am.

    I am about the worst person for anyone to violently assault a child in front of and, circumstantially, to be violent against women - though there are exceptions where I would not intervene. I was detained, questioned and arrested quite a few times in this regards, but no convictions.

    Violence between men is a different matter. I may or may not "rescue" another man under violent assault. I would if he is one of "mine" or if he is someone I felt would come to my aid. Knowing your words, I would not come to your aid. If you were being assaulted in front of me and knowing your beliefs, I would be untroubled sipping on a bourbon watching someone beat you to death. Not as some retaliation and I don't mean this as a flame. Nor it is a slogan. I've watched men beaten down that I could have easily stopped. Violence between men is violence between men. However it ends is how it ends.

    Thus as a theoretical, I would have come to the aid of Zimmerman because what he was doing was giving his time, energy and putting himself at risk to look out for his neighbors. I would not have come to the aid of Martin because as I understand facts I believe he violently attacked Zimmerman with no necessity to do so. Having done so, I am untroubled that Zimmerman shot and killed him. That was a conflict between two men, one died, at that point one was going to. If one of the two HAD to die, it is the one of the two I would prefer it be. It is known Zimmerman comes to people's aid. He shoved a cop off his buddy. Another time he reported a cop harassing a homeless person. And - no benefit to himself - he was watching out for the neighborhood. I don't read Martin ever having done anything good for anyone in his life and by the school he was a juvenile delinquent punk. Thus, Zimmerman worthy of my efforts on his behalf and Martin not.

    Why I would not come to your aid?

    1.) I know you are a person who would only rely on others and in ways no one could rely upon you and 2.) your empathy is towards the person assaulting you, not towards yourself as the victim if this was another man.

    What you write of is just book-words and a person can find any books of any words they want. Those are not reality. Those are people selling books for their profit.

    ALL empathy you have written, 100%, is ONLY towards people who maliciously and cruelly do violence towards others. THOSE are you you try to defend. I have exactly no sympathy for such men myself. So we are truly opposition. You WANT to defend the rapists. I will and have defended the victim or would-be victim. It is that simple a distinction between us.
    I'm not going to dignify this insult with a response...
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    My point is, which you may have missed, is that if we don't have free will and our concious thought is controlled by our sub-concious thought, then we cannot blame the person so we cannot punish them. This does not mean we cannot remove them from society or make them go to psychological exams.
    Well, I can't help wanting dangerous criminals dead, its my nature and I have no free will.


    You can't help being naive and clueless on this issue because you have no free will....


    Zimmerman couldn't help shooting Martin because he has no free will....

    Blah blah blah.... see how ridiculous this gets?

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Their "issues" are theirs to resolve. My only concern is whether or not they can live within a civil society.
    I completely agree. How about this, if they are put in jail and realize what they had done was wrong and want to change, should we offer them psychological help if they ask for it?
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    I completely agree. How about this, if they are put in jail and realize what they had done was wrong and want to change, should we offer them psychological help if they ask for it?
    That has nothing to do with the thread at all.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    I'am not in favor of the Stand Your Ground law. It could be used to push for "justifiable" homicides. JMO
    My family is more important than my party.
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