View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #181
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    My point is, which you may have missed, is that if we don't have free will and our concious thought is controlled by our sub-concious thought, then we cannot blame the person so we cannot punish them. This does not mean we cannot remove them from society or make them go to psychological exams.
    A person is responsible for their own actions. They can "think" whatever they want. I didn't miss your point at all. I do not accept psychological disturbance as an excuse. Rather, I see it as just meaning the person is more dangerous. If the person's "sub-conscious" is screwed up leading that person toward extreme cruel and malicious violence, that would more confirm what it best for all people is if that person is eliminated/erased because that person has a screwed up brain leading the person to harm or destroy other people.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    No, the reason we are heading toward the "dark ages" is because of people who refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions, and those who excuse atrocities as actions that people just can't control, because they are victims of society.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    A person is responsible for their own actions. They can "think" whatever they want. I didn't miss your point at all. I do not accept psychological disturbance as an excuse. Rather, I see it as just meaning the person is more dangerous. If the person's "sub-conscious" is screwed up leading that person toward extreme cruel and malicious violence, that would more confirm what it best for all people is if that person is eliminated/erased because that person has a screwed up brain leading the person to harm or destroy other people.
    good point-one can argue that a contract killer who is motivated by economic reasons is more salvageable than a whacked out nut case. its like a trained attack dog vs one with rabies

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    A person is responsible for their own actions. They can "think" whatever they want. I didn't miss your point at all. I do not accept psychological disturbance as an excuse. Rather, I see it as just meaning the person is more dangerous. If the person's "sub-conscious" is screwed up leading that person toward extreme cruel and malicious violence, that would more confirm what it best for all people is if that person is eliminated/erased because that person has a screwed up brain leading the person to harm or destroy other people.
    So in a sense, we should punish criminals because they had the bad luck of being born with a low IQ and the even more misfortune of being born into an abusive home? If you would like to structure our country into a system of punishment to those who have already lived a punished life, I don't know what else I can say to you to convince you that this would be morally screwed. You would be maximizing the bad life while diminishing the good life.

    Edit: Writing a blog on this subject if anyone is interested.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    So in a sense, we should punish criminals because they had the bad luck of being born with a low IQ and the even more misfortune of being born into an abusive home? If you would like to structure our country into a system of punishment to those who have already lived a punished life, I don't know what else I can say to you to convince you that this would be morally screwed. You would be maximizing the bad life while diminishing the good life.

    .
    Even a dog can learn what the word *No* means. As long as people can act within the standards of a civil society, there is no problem. If a human with a criminal mind cannot control his own impulses and actions, then yes, he should be restricted to whatever extent is necessarily to keep him from causing harm to others.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Even a dog can learn what the word *No* means. As long as people can act within the standards of a civil society, there is no problem. If a human with a criminal mind cannot control his own impulses and actions, then yes, he should be restricted to whatever extent is necessarily to keep him from causing harm to others.
    I agree partially, I'm arguing that no one can control their impulses and actions without an outside influence. So, I guess in my argument, should we not only remove them for a stated period of time but also require them to work on their obvious lacking of a positive mental condition?
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    So in a sense, we should punish criminals because they had the bad luck of being born with a low IQ and the even more misfortune of being born into an abusive home? If you would like to structure our country into a system of punishment to those who have already lived a punished life, I don't know what else I can say to you to convince you that this would be morally screwed. You would be maximizing the bad life while diminishing the good life.

    Edit: Writing a blog on this subject if anyone is interested.
    Nothing I wrote even hints that a person should be "punished because they had the bad luck of being born with a low IQ and the even more misfortune of being born into an abusive home." I wrote that a person is responsible for his or her own actions. If there is judgment - as YOU put it - is should be based upon ACTIONS, not a person's subconscious.

    Mostly, I'm saying you don't have a clue in reality what you are talking about. People can find books including by psychologists that say anything including exact opposites. There are centuries of books by philsophers and "psychologists" explaining the moral justifications of using physical torture as punishment, claiming that torture is more just and rational as punishment for all persons involved including the offender rather than prison. A person can pick whatever books they want. They prove nothing at all.

    In my youth I saw and experienced more "abuse" than anyone would believe if I wrote 1/1ooth of it and it had been going on for nearly a century. Of those who survived it - and many did not - the result was 1 of 3 kinds of people "psychologically":

    1. Defeated, broken people. They have no will power whatsoever, are totally submissive to everyone and everything, and so incapable of making a decision just picking what they want off a restaurant menu is an impossible task.

    2. Violent. When becoming adult (not necessarily 18) it is their turn to have the power of violence. Those are exorbitantly dangerous men and should be destroyed. Calculating in all ways, they would easily come to appear to be "cured," but the are time bombs with hair triggers. They willl do what was done to them and worse. They can not be cured the the horror, fear, pain and destruction of other people they will do can never be portrayed in any words and doing so is pleasurable to them in an entertainment and ego-stoking sense. No one who has not seen what such men will do can not possibly wrap their head around that reality.

    3. Resistant. When becoming adult, they will absolutely oppose such violence of men and will do so proactively and with a determination to be more "powerful" than such evil men. It can become the priority of their life. Violent men are "the enemy." Those are men you should never prick around because they won't take intimidation again, will never be submissive again, will not tolerate anyone poising potential harm to them (or their own people of their life) and they are the worst person to do violence towards children (and possibly women) around. That is who I am.

    I am about the worst person for anyone to violently assault a child in front of and, circumstantially, to be violent against women - though there are exceptions where I would not intervene. I was detained, questioned and arrested quite a few times in this regards, but no convictions.

    Violence between men is a different matter. I may or may not "rescue" another man under violent assault. I would if he is one of "mine" or if he is someone I felt would come to my aid. Knowing your words, I would not come to your aid. If you were being assaulted in front of me and knowing your beliefs, I would be untroubled sipping on a bourbon watching someone beat you to death. Not as some retaliation and I don't mean this as a flame. Nor it is a slogan. I've watched men beaten down that I could have easily stopped. Violence between men is violence between men. However it ends is how it ends.

    Thus as a theoretical, I would have come to the aid of Zimmerman because what he was doing was giving his time, energy and putting himself at risk to look out for his neighbors. I would not have come to the aid of Martin because as I understand facts I believe he violently attacked Zimmerman with no necessity to do so. Having done so, I am untroubled that Zimmerman shot and killed him. That was a conflict between two men, one died, at that point one was going to. If one of the two HAD to die, it is the one of the two I would prefer it be. It is known Zimmerman comes to people's aid. He shoved a cop off his buddy. Another time he reported a cop harassing a homeless person. And - no benefit to himself - he was watching out for the neighborhood. I don't read Martin ever having done anything good for anyone in his life and by the school he was a juvenile delinquent punk. Thus, Zimmerman worthy of my efforts on his behalf and Martin not.

    Why I would not come to your aid?

    1.) I know you are a person who would only rely on others and in ways no one could rely upon you and 2.) your empathy is towards the person assaulting you, not towards yourself as the victim if this was another man.

    What you write of is just book-words and a person can find any books of any words they want. Those are not reality. Those are people selling books for their profit.

    ALL empathy you have written, 100%, is ONLY towards people who maliciously and cruelly do violence towards others. THOSE are you you try to defend. I have exactly no sympathy for such men myself. So we are truly opposition. You WANT to defend the rapists. I will and have defended the victim or would-be victim. It is that simple a distinction between us.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-06-12 at 12:13 PM.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    So in a sense, we should punish criminals because they had the bad luck of being born with a low IQ and the even more misfortune of being born into an abusive home? If you would like to structure our country into a system of punishment to those who have already lived a punished life, I don't know what else I can say to you to convince you that this would be morally screwed. You would be maximizing the bad life while diminishing the good life.

    Edit: Writing a blog on this subject if anyone is interested.
    Not everyone who is born into an abusive home becomes a criminal. People choose criminal behavior.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    I agree partially, I'm arguing that no one can control their impulses and actions without an outside influence. So, I guess in my argument, should we not only remove them for a stated period of time but also require them to work on their obvious lacking of a positive mental condition?
    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You can't force someone to fix their mental and emotional problems. Only they can do that, of their own free will. You can place limits on their negative behaviors, but this amounts to little more than training animals to behave. As long as they are behaving, I don't care if they *fix* their problems. That is an issue that only they can deal with.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    I agree partially, I'm arguing that no one can control their impulses and actions without an outside influence. So, I guess in my argument, should we not only remove them for a stated period of time but also require them to work on their obvious lacking of a positive mental condition?
    Drawing happy faces with crayons?

    Sure, many people can benefit from counseling. No doubt. I've voluntarily been in counseling. I've suggested it to others. BUT a person who can find pleasure in causing other people to suffer, causing terror and causing horrific pain is not a curable person. However, many are manipulative enough to convince others they have been. There is essentially no cure for a violent, brutal pedifile or rapist because it is the cruelty and suffering that is the pleasure of it.

    Petty stuff, theft, someone losing their cool etc are all things that can be addressed and, in a sense, "cured" or the person grows out of it. But someone who finds pleasure in physically hurting others for the horror, suffering and terror they cause cannot be cured. Whether life's unfairness cause the person to be this way changes nothing nor can that past be eliminated. Its not a dog's fault if it bitten by a rabid racoon. You still put the dog down.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-06-12 at 12:09 PM.

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