View Poll Results: Should the government be able to regulate this market in advance as stated below?

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    3 12.50%
  • No

    19 79.17%
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    2 8.33%
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Thread: Mandated Burial Plot

  1. #21
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Seems rather foolish that they didn't pass a single payer system in the first place then.
    It's not that it wasn't the intent or the ultimate goal of those who pushed for health care reform on the left. The issue was simply that they didn't have the votes needed to make it happen, even despite their super majority in congress. They didn't even have the votes and support needed to get their initial drafts of this version of health care reform done and had to continue to water it down. If they had the votes to get single payer I'm sure that's the direction they would've gone....even with a super majority, they simply didn't have the needed support for that.

  2. #22
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Seems rather foolish that they didn't pass a single payer system in the first place then.
    True. It would have been better. But the exploding heads would have been much harder to clean up.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #23
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not sure why you want the same things repeated, but ok:
    It is a terrible shame when people are unable to think for themselves. There is a huge jump from regulating insurance to forcing someone to buy from private industry. So again, when you finally read the constitution and figure out where the enumerated powers give the fed's such a power, let us know.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  4. #24
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    It is a terrible shame when people are unable to think for themselves. There is a huge jump from regulating insurance to forcing someone to buy from private industry. So again, when you finally read the constitution and figure out where the enumerated powers give the fed's such a power, let us know.
    What you mean is, if someone doesn't simply believe you, they are not thinking for themselves. I merely believe this question isn't clear cut. Many things, especially law and language, have room for disagreement. I've seen solid arguments on both sides. not from you, but form others. I fall on the side that it is legal. But being smart enough to see the gray area doesn't mean I don't think.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #25
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What you mean is, if someone doesn't simply believe you, they are not thinking for themselves. I merely believe this question isn't clear cut. Many things, especially law and language, have room for disagreement. I've seen solid arguments on both sides. not from you, but form others. I fall on the side that it is legal. But being smart enough to see the gray area doesn't mean I don't think.
    You are not thinking for yourself because you refuse to do your homework and read the constitution and federalist papers, instead relying on the words of others that support your views.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  6. #26
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    I'll ask you again here, can you show us where in the Constitution federal government has the power to force people to purchase from private industry?
    The mistake made by some many "Constitution lovers"..
    These problems, these situations simply did not exist at the time of the Constitution...So how in the world could the framers have written anything..
    News flash !
    Today, things are different...
    And, its our government's responsibility to handle this care of the people - but only the financial end...IN MY OPINION.

  7. #27
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Whether it's "his money" or "the government's money" is merely a semantic distinction, which is entirely determined by acts of Congress (i.e. the tax code) in the first place.
    It's not semantics at all, unless the congress had unlimited power to tax in any and every way it wishes which is not the case as there are limitations placed upon the government with regards to how and what they can tax. Simply because you dislike the notion of how one can look at the argument makes their opinion no less relevant than your own.

    In the case of stating "If you purchase something, we will take less of your taxes away", the only entity with a negative effect DIRECTLY on them is the Government. If the Citizen chooses to go against what the government is urging him to do, he takes no damage to where he would be financially had the government not acted at all.

    In the case of stating "If you don't purchase something, we will take more of money away from you in taxes", the only entity with a negative effect DIRECTLY on them is the CITIZEN. If the citizen chooses to go against what the government is urging him to do, he directly takes damage to where he would be financially had the government not acted at all.

    This is why many conservatives don't have a LARGE issue with tax credits (though some even have issues with those because its government interfering with the market in the first place, which they feel they have no role in doing). However, if you went:

    "We're going to raise your income taxes by $500. We're also going to offer a tax credit of $500 for those who purchase solar panels". Then conservatives would have an issue because in this particular case, you're not actually giving a tax credit but essentially instituting an end around attempt to force individuals to purchase something. Again, in this particular case, an individual who goes against what the government is urging him to do is damaged in a direct fashion compared to a situation where the government took no actoin at all.

    Notice throughout I've been stating direct. Things such as "public services" are not a "direct" side effect of such situations imho

  8. #28
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    The mistake made by some many "Constitution lovers"..
    These problems, these situations simply did not exist at the time of the Constitution...So how in the world could the framers have written anything..
    News flash !
    Today, things are different...
    And, its our government's responsibility to handle this care of the people - but only the financial end...IN MY OPINION.
    This is the mistake made by people that see the Constitution as standing in the way of how they want thing's to be.

    The framers could not foresee much of how the world has changed, but they did their best to account for such things. One way in which they did that, was to allow for a system that could amend the constitution in the event it needed to be. Pretty brilliant thinking on their part. The problem is, it's not easy to admend the constitution, so those that seek to 'drastically change' America don't want to go down that LEGAL path for change, as they know they will fail. Instead they work around it, and redefine and reinterpret what the constitution says, heck, at times, they just completely ignore it.

    If people thing health care is governments job, then amend the damn constitution. Quit making excuses and illogical and lame arguments.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  9. #29
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    The mistake made by some many "Constitution lovers"..
    These problems, these situations simply did not exist at the time of the Constitution...So how in the world could the framers have written anything..
    News flash !
    Today, things are different...
    And, its our government's responsibility to handle this care of the people - but only the financial end...IN MY OPINION.
    I disagree completely. Our constitution was written somewhat broadly while still being relatively deliniated and narrow. I do not believe our governments responsability is to handle the care of the poeple or to do good or to do what's moral or anything like that. I believe attempting to use government to "do good" or "care for people" or other such things is actually a recipe for disaster and destruction in the long run. It is not the basis of the social contract of this country and I believe is largely against the spirit and basis for what this country was founded on. I believe the strength and benefit of the constitution was that it gave a rather limited picture of what government was supposed to do, but was relatively generalized in regards to how they should do those limited thing, allowing it leeway in the future to address unforseen issues regarding those limited duties while at the same time hopefully, if people kept to the spirit and intent of it, keeping government limited to specific generalized duties rather than expanding to be a tool the people use to "take care of people".

    Morals, ethics, views of what is "good" and "bad", views of what is "Caring" for people and what is "ruling" them, views in regards to what's "fair" and what's "just" and on are extremely subjective and vary person to person due to a myraid of reasons. That is the pitfall and issue with attempting to make government be something that is not limited and narrow in nature but vast, as you create a situation where it is majority rule of what constitutes those above things and then through the force of government the majority forces that upon the minority. A majority and minority that often, in such a diverse and expansive country as ours, is strikingly narrow in terms of the difference in size. This causes increase discontent and discord and damages society and government.

    What you just described is to me personally and in my opinion, the single biggest mindset that is rooted in the destruction of what this country was founded on and what will lead it to eventually crumble. The notion that it is the responsability of GOVERNMENT, and not of the individual people, to be responsable for the "care" of its people.

  10. #30
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    Re: Mandated Burial Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So talking ot my relatively apolitical wife about the health care law last night and the arguments made in court, she brought up an analogy that I actually thought was rather on point and one I wanted to expand on.

    People die. When people die, if there is no family or no one able to provide for their burial we do not simply leave the dead decaying body to lie out and about. Someone bears the cost to go forward with disposing of the body either thorugh burial or cremation. And when that's ont a family member its putting an unnecessary financial burden on portions of society. Everyone, in some fashion, will enter into this market place at some point. There is no an individual who at some point in their life will be involved in some fashion with this particular market. We don't know when an individual may enter this market, and the entrance to it could be sudden and without any forthought.

    As such, should the government be able to regulate this market in advance by mandating that every individual do one of the following two things or be levied a tax penalty?:


    1. Purchase Life Insurance, assuring that everyone who dies will have some money doled out that will cover after-death costs. To go along with this, regulation will be put on Life Insurance that it must cover ALL forms of death at least to a minimum amount, including suicide.
    2. Purchase a burial plot and coffin or pre-purchase cremation services.

    I should not be forced to purchase something I may never use or utilize.
    Last edited by barbarian_style; 03-29-12 at 01:27 PM.

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