View Poll Results: Obama or Bush?

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  • Obama

    32 68.09%
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    15 31.91%
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Thread: Obama or Bush?

  1. #71
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    Though the exact number is difficult to find, the UN noted that Iraq was being bombed on a weekly, sometimes daily, occurrence from 1993 till 2003. I couldn't find the number, but the deaths from bombing alone amounted to the hundreds of thousands. If you add the deaths as a result of sanctions, the number jumps to over a million. The widespread rate of increased birth defects is well documented. Do you remember Madeline Albright's controversial statement about the deaths being "worth the price"?
    UN sanctions during the Clinton years caused deaths in the hundreds of thousands in Iraq but civilian deaths due to bombing was much lower.

    War casualties under Clinton and Bush | Technoccult

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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hikertrash View Post
    UN sanctions during the Clinton years caused deaths in the hundreds of thousands in Iraq but civilian deaths due to bombing was much lower.

    War casualties under Clinton and Bush | Technoccult
    The number of civilian deaths is unknown, a fact that even your source recognizes. I only brought up the 100k+ figure because I remember reading it from the UN. I have tried to recover the statistic but am unable to do it. I do know that it was a contentious figure that some leftists, such as Michael Moore, have used.

    Regardless, Clinton is likely partly (or primarily, depending on how you view things) responsible for the mass deaths, whether they be by bombings or sanctions.

  3. #73
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    The number of civilian deaths is unknown, a fact that even your source recognizes. I only brought up the 100k+ figure because I remember reading it from the UN. I have tried to recover the statistic but am unable to do it. I do know that it was a contentious figure that some leftists, such as Michael Moore, have used.

    Regardless, Clinton is likely partly (or primarily, depending on how you view things) responsible for the mass deaths, whether they be by bombings or sanctions.
    For what its worth, I do remember an inordinate number of maimed civilians when I went in to Iraq in 2003. A lot of people with no arms, legs, scarred faces. We thought it was due to the brutal nature of the regime though. We were just dumb kids. Kind of deflated us a little when someone told us it was from our bombings over the previous years. Its very disheartening when you have these deformed children thanking you for liberating them when you know it was your country that deformed them to begin with.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  4. #74
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    The number of civilian deaths is unknown, a fact that even your source recognizes. I only brought up the 100k+ figure because I remember reading it from the UN. I have tried to recover the statistic but am unable to do it. I do know that it was a contentious figure that some leftists, such as Michael Moore, have used.

    Regardless, Clinton is likely partly (or primarily, depending on how you view things) responsible for the mass deaths, whether they be by bombings or sanctions.
    I've heard anecdotally that Iraqis detest Bill Clinton much more than Dubya. The common narrative is that Clinton's economic sanctions were responsible for the deaths of around 1 million Iraqi children. How accurate that number is, I don't really know, but they really blamed Clinton for that.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 04-03-12 at 12:52 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  5. #75
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Yeah, I'm also curious to know what singular event in '99 created the housing bubble.
    Me too. The fact is that the housing bubble started to inflate circa 2003. But it was the shenanigans by the investment banks on Wall Street that created the financial meltdown that happened in 2008. Greedy bastards.



    Eliot Spitzer - Predatory Lenders' Partner in Crime


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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Eh, thats shaky. I think Bush was speaking in the confidence of the info given to him. Its not like he's an intel analyst. I think he has the same excuse LBJ has in that regard. I believe he was told by people he trusted that there was a threat. He did what most Presidents do, he trusted his advisors and made a decision. In that case, it was the wrong one. I do hold him responsible because it was on his watch. But I don't think the mistake was his interpertation of intelligence info. It was his trusting of an untrustworthy subordinate or group of subordinates.
    I don't think so. Many saw it clearly, had foresight, pointed out his errors long before we invaded. For the president of the US, with all the access he had, to miss it? Well, I think you have to willingly suspend disbelief. Remove Curveball, And Chalabi, and his heroes in error, and examine the claims, and I think it becomes clear the president was less than honest. The finding that Fieth inappropriately used intel speaks to this.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #77
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    I think that to believe Bush lied (using the literal definition of the term) is to believe a conspiracy. What most likely occurred is that Bush pushed forward faulty intelligence because he was a careless president. Lying requires an intent to deceive.
    Not conspiracy in the way we most often speak to it. More he started with the answer, invade Iraq, and sought to find a way to justify it. He had many who also wanted to invade Iraq. The best reason for it I heard came from a conservative think tank, Strafor, who criticized Bush only for telling the wrong lie, one too easily shown false. The idea according to them, was that we needed a base in that area, and Iraq would be a place to have one. I don't know if that is true, but it makes more sense than thinking Bush didn't know what others knew. And let's not forget, we do have a rather large and expensive base there now.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #78
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not conspiracy in the way we most often speak to it. More he started with the answer, invade Iraq, and sought to find a way to justify it. He had many who also wanted to invade Iraq. The best reason for it I heard came from a conservative think tank, Strafor, who criticized Bush only for telling the wrong lie, one too easily shown false. The idea according to them, was that we needed a base in that area, and Iraq would be a place to have one. I don't know if that is true, but it makes more sense than thinking Bush didn't know what others knew. And let's not forget, we do have a rather large and expensive base there now.
    We already had a base in Kuwait. That doesn't hold water. And what base are you speaking of in Iraq?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  9. #79
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    We already had a base in Kuwait. That doesn't hold water. And what base are you speaking of in Iraq?
    My understanding was that wasn't good enough. But then again, it isn't my theory. It is the conservative think tanks theory. The point is, they recognized the lie even though they supported the war. It was a conservative and war supporter who asked me to cnsider it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #80
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    Re: Obama or Bush?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    We already had a base in Kuwait. That doesn't hold water. And what base are you speaking of in Iraq?
    BTW, Boo, I know its not your theory.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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