View Poll Results: Your instinct ... is Zimmerman lying about what took place?

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  • It seems Zimmerman is lying to cover his crime

    28 33.33%
  • Probably

    19 22.62%
  • No clue

    23 27.38%
  • No

    11 13.10%
  • Comment

    3 3.57%
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Thread: Is he lying?

  1. #201
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We know that Zimmerman took the life of an unarmed minor after he was advised by a professional not to approach him. While that in no way changes the legal assumption of innocence - it does warrant a thorough and complete investigation to determine if Z is telling the truth.
    I don't disagree with that Haymarket. What it doesn't warrant, is making Zimmerman prove he's innocent.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We know that Zimmerman took the life of an unarmed minor after he was advised by a professional not to approach him. While that in no way changes the legal assumption of innocence - it does warrant a thorough and complete investigation to determine if Z is telling the truth.
    I think this is where the problem is. Had the police completed a thorough investigation and concluded there was insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges, the situation would have been considerably different than it is now. As a consequence of failing to investigate, the current situation beckons speculation. There is something I find rather repugnant about people choosing sides on this issue. Everyone should be outraged that this was not investigated like it should have been, but instead people seem to be more interested in going with their initial emotional reactions and personal intuitions about the events.
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  3. #203
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't disagree with that Haymarket. What it doesn't warrant, is making Zimmerman prove he's innocent.
    Zimmerman admits shooting and killing someone. You must have a reason for doing that, so yes, he must prove his 'innocence' in that respect (that his use of force was justified).

    Now if there were zero witnesses, and if Zimmerman had not admitted (via 911) that he was following Martin, and if Zimmerman really did show physical evidence of a serious beating, then Zimmerman could probably get away scott free on his version of events alone.

    However, that is not the case, and in a non-SYG state Zimmerman would have already been charged -- for his actions precipitated the shooting. It is the peculiarities of the SYG law that allow him to pursue, get in an altercation, then kill without penalty. Again, the pursuit is the key -- he set events in motion.

  4. #204
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I think this is where the problem is. Had the police completed a thorough investigation and concluded there was insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges, the situation would have been considerably different than it is now. As a consequence of failing to investigate, the current situation beckons speculation. There is something I find rather repugnant about people choosing sides on this issue. Everyone should be outraged that this was not investigated like it should have been [...]
    I think it has already been investigated to the extent possible (edit: well, to the extent that it will make any difference). Zimmerman will walk due to the SYG law, barring a purely political prosecution, or a surprise witness.

    Even if no aggressive wounds were found on Martin's hands, that still does not obviate Zimmerman's claimed fear of great bodily harm (head allegedly being bashed into the sidewalk).
    Last edited by Karl; 04-01-12 at 12:54 PM.

  5. #205
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Who requested the analysis?

    I have hard time believing an "expert" if the "news" organization was the ones who requested it. I mean... just look at all the advertising that guy's firm got in that story......
    I agree with you reservedly, but it is good of you to point it out. I really don't believe that news institutions (for the most part) go out seeking to press a specific point of view, and will generally present evidence like this regardless of the outcome. First of all, news organizations are more biased toward the sensational than anything else, including over liberal or conservative. Related: This would have been news everyone wanted to read regardless of the outcome. Second, the Sentinel is accused of being liberal by conservatives, and conservative by liberals, so they are probably doing a better job than MSNBC or Fox news of truly being 'fair and balanced'. Third, the guy's firm would have gotten the free advertising regardless of his conclusions: This is a hot issue on both sides. Finally, would the analysts stake their reputations on conclusions that they felt were likely to be different than the official ones?

    That said, reading the way it is written, it looks like the Orlando Sentinel requested the analysis. The effect of what the paper has done here is to force the hand of prosecutors. They will be forced (and should be forced) to have their own expert analysis done. They may have already been planning to, but the newspaper has made certain that it will now happen.

    And in the end, you are right that this is not the conclusion of the official investigation. I concede that we should all bear these things in mind when looking at the 'evidence'.
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  6. #206
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I think this is where the problem is. Had the police completed a thorough investigation and concluded there was insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges, the situation would have been considerably different than it is now. As a consequence of failing to investigate, the current situation beckons speculation. There is something I find rather repugnant about people choosing sides on this issue. Everyone should be outraged that this was not investigated like it should have been, but instead people seem to be more interested in going with their initial emotional reactions and personal intuitions about the events.
    Why does everyone keep saying that the police did not complete a thorough investigation?
    Do you have any idea what is in that case file that the State Attorney has, that was put together by the Sandford PD?

    Can you please tell us how it "should have been" investigated? Or for that matter, How it WAS investigated?
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  7. #207
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    I agree with you reservedly, but it is good of you to point it out. I really don't believe that news institutions (for the most part) go out seeking to press a specific point of view, and will generally present evidence like this regardless of the outcome. First of all, news organizations are more biased toward the sensational than anything else, including over liberal or conservative. Related: This would have been news everyone wanted to read regardless of the outcome. Second, the Sentinel is accused of being liberal by conservatives, and conservative by liberals, so they are probably doing a better job than MSNBC or Fox news of truly being 'fair and balanced'. Third, the guy's firm would have gotten the free advertising regardless of his conclusions: This is a hot issue on both sides. Finally, would the analysts stake their reputations on conclusions that they felt were likely to be different than the official ones?

    That said, reading the way it is written, it looks like the Orlando Sentinel requested the analysis. The effect of what the paper has done here is to force the hand of prosecutors. They will be forced (and should be forced) to have their own expert analysis done. They may have already been planning to, but the newspaper has made certain that it will now happen.

    And in the end, you are right that this is not the conclusion of the official investigation. I concede that we should all bear these things in mind when looking at the 'evidence'.
    And the State may not have done an analysis because the results cannot be accurate due to him SCREAMING as compared to just Talking.


    In as far as news institutions don't go seeking a specific point of view....

    NBC Deceptively Edits Zimmerman 911 Call; Implies Racist Motive
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  8. #208
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    And the State may not have done an analysis because the results cannot be accurate due to him SCREAMING as compared to just Talking.


    In as far as news institutions don't go seeking a specific point of view....

    NBC Deceptively Edits Zimmerman 911 Call; Implies Racist Motive
    Yes, as I granted through implication, I do think it does happen. I think Fox and MSNBC are the ones that typically do this sort of thing on occasion. I just don't agree that it generally happens. We are talking about the Orlando Sentinel, not MSNBC.
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  9. #209
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Yes, as I granted through implication, I do think it does happen. I think Fox and MSNBC are the ones that typically do this sort of thing on occasion. I just don't agree that it generally happens. We are talking about the Orlando Sentinel, not MSNBC.
    Oh I know.... its just hard to trust any of them.

    Like ABC getting that grainy ass video and screaming YO There ain't no wounds here!
    And then someone else coming along and releasing the higher definition video.

    Or what not. I haven't really seen much of what Fox has released on the matter. Maybe I'll find some overly supportive crap on there.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  10. #210
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    Re: Is he lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't disagree with that Haymarket. What it doesn't warrant, is making Zimmerman prove he's innocent.
    You're correct. So if the bullet came form Zimmerman's gun and Zimmerman told police what he did, and we all think this is correct then Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. So the proof is needed by the government to prove that Zimmerman didn't follow all provisions in the SYGL that allow Zimmerman to kill Martin.

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