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Punishment or solution?

Punishment or solution?

  • Punishment.

    Votes: 5 20.8%
  • Solution.

    Votes: 19 79.2%

  • Total voters
    24

Kal'Stang

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Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?
 
38 views and several hours later and no one has an opinion on this? No votes? Is my question really that hard to answer?
 
Don't the statistics for USofA's prison population prove without a doubt that we're doing something very wrong in this country?

I'm not saying violent crime should be without punishment.

But we've got a serious problem in this country and just throwing more people in prison for longer periods of time isn't fixing anything.
 
Don't the statistics for USofA's prison population prove without a doubt that we're doing something very wrong in this country?

I'm not saying violent crime should be without punishment.

But we've got a serious problem in this country and just throwing more people in prison for longer periods of time isn't fixing anything.

I agree for the most part. A lot of the racial disparity and general over crowding is simply the useless war on drugs. A complete waist of time, effort and money best used someplace else.
 
I agree for the most part. A lot of the racial disparity and general over crowding is simply the useless war on drugs. A complete waist of time, effort and money best used someplace else.

And you know when a d-bag like Pat Robertson starts saying the same kinds of things that there might be hope for some changes to come after all.
 
Crime Does Pay.jpg

I'd say we need both.

Punishment for the guy on the left.

A solution for the guy on the right.
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?
I prefer solutions to punishments alone with the caveat that punishment can be a part of the solution.

To me, solutions to the problem of crime have two parts: the individual and society. On the individual level, prison should be a place where people are assessed to determine whether or not their behavioral patterns can be changed. If they can be changed, then the prison takes the steps necessary to do it. Consequently, a prison sentence would be determined according to how long it would take to alter their behavior and establish positive patterns much like time for rehab is determined. After prison, criminals who need them would go into society re-entry programs - much like "sober houses" are for addicts.

On the societal level, solving the problem of crime rests in quality schools, a large quantity of after school/park district programs, programs to teach people skills needed to succeed, quality police activity and other things.

Crime and criminals are problems. These problems have solutions and punishment alone is not one of them.
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

Difficult to answer to with intellectual honesty. I prefer solutions as a concept, but the problems in dealing with crime are so variable, and individuals so variable as well, that *solutions* become virtually impossible to define universally.
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

By all means, do present your list of tried and true "solutions" that will go a long ways to solving this crime problem.
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

the war on drugs has proven to be an abject failure

punishing market driven "crimes" is stupid because if you remove the source of supply of something the market demands, then another person is driven by economic opportunity to fill the void and the more "illegal" the commodity is-the more lucrative it becomes in many cases

Now crimes driven purely by malevolent motivations-such as child rape etc can only be stopped by incapacitating the person harboring such motivations.

but if we stopped criminalizing market driven activity, you would stop lots of the ancillary criminal activity that comes from the prosecution of the main crime (ie theft to pay for artificially high priced narcotics)
 
View attachment 67124648

I'd say we need both.

Punishment for the guy on the left.

A solution for the guy on the right.


actually that bit is inaccurate. Under the federal sentencing guidelines, massive amounts stolen even if its 10 dollars per person from a million people (meaning no one was seriously harmed) is going to result in a huge "offense level" (like 35 points or so) leading to 10+ years in federal prison (and fraud is accompanied by all sorts of other charges such as "using a communication device to facilitate a conspiracy" etc).

The second guy's sentence (which was not explained) usually results from one or two extras

1) recidivist enhancements

2) MANDATORY consecutive enhancements (ie time for the crime PLUS extra time for the enhancement) of using a weapon in the commission of a crime (thus making it a CRIME OF VIOLENCE)
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

There are certainly things to be wary of. The real problem is as you say, things only get tacked on; nothing is ever removed. As a result you end up with laws and lists for everything. The United States has one of the highest incarceration rate of the industrialized world. Actually, I just looked this up in Wikipedia….highest in the world. Seriously, think about that! Russia and China CANNOT COMPARE to our incarceration rate. WTF is up with that?

Are Americans really that much more inclined to commit crimes? Are we naturally that much harder to control than the rest of the entire world? Do we inherently fight back more than anyone else on the planet? Or is our government more aggressive than all others in making and enforcing law? Land of the free, yes? Would you imagine Land of the Free, the Shining City on the Hill, the example to all what freedom and democracy can look like to have the highest incarceration rate IN THE WORLD!!??

Do we need more laws? Or do we just need better laws? Laws in which the government is actually restrained, constrained to the edicts of the constitution and forced to uphold our rights and recognize our humanity. Here’s a scary thought, how many laws did you break on your way to work this morning? Sometimes people don’t even know that they’re breaking laws because of the sheer number of laws on the books. You all broke some laws going in, you’ll all break some laws going home. You’re merely at the behest of government and whether or not they decide to **** with you that day.

Land of the Free? At one time yes, not anymore. The Shining City is now tarnished. Thank you Republocrats for stealing the Republic out from underneath us.
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

The main purpose of justice is to punish the offender in order to deter that offender from commuting future offenses and to deter potential offenders. Some offenses are punished with commit service,some are punished with fines,some are punished with time in jail or prison and some are punished with the death penalty. The question should be is that punishment adequate for that offense.

Personally I think many offenses should have a mandatory minimum and eliminate these fake rich guy prisons so that we don't have rich guy criminals going to fake prison for a few months and regular Joe schmoe criminals going to real prison for a long time.
 
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actually that bit is inaccurate. Under the federal sentencing guidelines, massive amounts stolen even if its 10 dollars per person from a million people (meaning no one was seriously harmed) is going to result in a huge "offense level" (like 35 points or so) leading to 10+ years in federal prison (and fraud is accompanied by all sorts of other charges such as "using a communication device to facilitate a conspiracy" etc).

The second guy's sentence (which was not explained) usually results from one or two extras

1) recidivist enhancements

2) MANDATORY consecutive enhancements (ie time for the crime PLUS extra time for the enhancement) of using a weapon in the commission of a crime (thus making it a CRIME OF VIOLENCE)

Bo Brownstein:

NEW YORK -- The Denver owner of a hedge fund was sentenced Wednesday to a year and a day in prison after he admitted making up to $2.5 million by trading on insider information he got from a longtime friend. U.S. District Judge Robert Patterson also ordered 35-year-old Drew "Bo" Brownstein to serve six months of home confinement and to perform 500 hours of community service. He fined him $7,500 and signed an order requiring him to forfeit $2.4 million in illegal profits.

Junior Allen:

Allen was 30 years old in 1970 when he walked into the unlocked home of an 87-year-old woman near Benson, N.C., and took her 19-inch Motorola. He hid the $140 TV in the woods, but never watched it. Police followed his footprints and quickly arrested him at his labor camp...By then, he had a rap sheet that included burglaries and a violent assault....Under the law of the day, a jury sentenced him to life in prison for second-degree burglary -- a crime that today would carry a maximum punishment of three years.

Junior Allen Prison | TV Thief Regains Life Taken by Jail Sentence - Los Angeles Times
Drew 'Bo' Brownstein: NY Judge Sentences Denver Trader To Year In Prison For Insider Trading

You're right, he had a couple other offenses...including a violent assault. Still...

A year and a day?
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

Are you implying that the law makers have become more draconian in their legislative actions related to crime?
 
There are certainly things to be wary of. The real problem is as you say, things only get tacked on; nothing is ever removed. As a result you end up with laws and lists for everything. The United States has one of the highest incarceration rate of the industrialized world. Actually, I just looked this up in Wikipedia….highest in the world. Seriously, think about that! Russia and China CANNOT COMPARE to our incarceration rate. WTF is up with that?

Are Americans really that much more inclined to commit crimes? Are we naturally that much harder to control than the rest of the entire world? Do we inherently fight back more than anyone else on the planet? Or is our government more aggressive than all others in making and enforcing law? Land of the free, yes? Would you imagine Land of the Free, the Shining City on the Hill, the example to all what freedom and democracy can look like to have the highest incarceration rate IN THE WORLD!!??

Do we need more laws? Or do we just need better laws? Laws in which the government is actually restrained, constrained to the edicts of the constitution and forced to uphold our rights and recognize our humanity. Here’s a scary thought, how many laws did you break on your way to work this morning? Sometimes people don’t even know that they’re breaking laws because of the sheer number of laws on the books. You all broke some laws going in, you’ll all break some laws going home. You’re merely at the behest of government and whether or not they decide to **** with you that day.

Land of the Free? At one time yes, not anymore. The Shining City is now tarnished. Thank you Republocrats for stealing the Republic out from underneath us.

Damn preach it!

Well black males make up 40% of the US prison population while only making up 13% of the US population (that includes women as well). The vast majority of these men are held on drug sale and possession charges and other non violent crimes. The disparity in sentencing and the useless war on drugs are the main reasons for this. So we could get rid of 25 to 30% of our prison population by addressing this disparity and covert racism.
 
Restorative justice works. Compared with punitive systems, recidivism is lower, and upon released, criminals are more able to enter the workforce and become productive citizens. It's tried. It's true. And it works. Once we stop wanting to hurt people and take revenge on them, and starting helping people who are, quite often, in the position they are as a result of violence at home as kids, and extreme poverty, then we can rehabilitate these people. Think about it. Less crime, more productive people in the workforce, more tax dollars. What's not to like? Oh yeah, it's more expensive and less profitable for the private prison companies...

Remember that whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing? Apply that to thieves, drug dealers, and gang members, and they can become law abiding citizens.
 
Restorative justice works. Compared with punitive systems, recidivism is lower, and upon released, criminals are more able to enter the workforce and become productive citizens. It's tried. It's true. And it works. Once we stop wanting to hurt people and take revenge on them, and starting helping people who are, quite often, in the position they are as a result of violence at home as kids, and extreme poverty, then we can rehabilitate these people. Think about it. Less crime, more productive people in the workforce, more tax dollars. What's not to like? Oh yeah, it's more expensive and less profitable for the private prison companies...

Remember that whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing? Apply that to thieves, drug dealers, and gang members, and they can become law abiding citizens.

I agree the population today is punishment oriented. There's not enough rehabilitative resources being applied. But there also has to be some corrective measures being taken or nothing is learned. Don't treat incarcerated people like animals but don't make it a country club either.
 
Restorative justice works. Compared with punitive systems, recidivism is lower, and upon released, criminals are more able to enter the workforce and become productive citizens. It's tried. It's true. And it works.

Remember that whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing? Apply that to thieves, drug dealers, and gang members, and they can become law abiding citizens.

To the bolded- I have serious doubts about that. Excons often get branded, and spend their entire lives after release just trying to survive, because they have a criminal record dogging them. I support full forgiveness upon completion of serving time, and if they are released early, then do away with parole and consider their debt paid in full. No criminal record hanging around their necks.

As for the last part of your post (which I quoted), I agree fully.
 
I've always been for prevention, and putting more money into education, instead of spending it on prisons (the Kitzhaber model). But, prevention stats are always in the future, and costly to prove at the time. They save money in the long run, and are the right thing to do. Politicians pass the federal laws (which result in sentencing) as a reaction, and to show the public that they are doing something.
 
I've always been for prevention, and putting more money into education, instead of spending it on prisons (the Kitzhaber model). But, prevention stats are always in the future, and costly to prove at the time. They save money in the long run, and are the right thing to do. Politicians pass the federal laws (which result in sentencing) as a reaction, and to show the public that they are doing something.

The problem with the bolded, is that we already spend huge amounts on education and opportunities, but many people fail to use them as a means for improving their lives. We have been spending huge amounts on welfare programs for many years now, and what we seem to be getting for the money is more welfare obligations.
Much of the problem is cultural. You can throw money at a societal problem, but until the problem is resolved within the individual and the community which is the source of the problem, nothing has been accomplished.
You can't fix poor parenting and bad choices by tossing in money. These problems are so deep-seated that they basically can't be fixed by society, but only by the individual.
 
38 views and several hours later and no one has an opinion on this? No votes? Is my question really that hard to answer?

Man has been around (most have left the caves) for what 50,000 years ???
And still there is no solution...(maybe far too many are still in the caves...)
What we need is less revenge and more love..
Not to worry, I have precious little love for a criminal.....and even less for those who wish to perpetuate this sorry solution.
We need a better people.
 
No, they can't be fixed by society. However, being only about the individual and not working on social solutions, accomplishes nothing either. They may have bad parents at home, but there is more than just a chance that teacher may get through to the child.
 
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