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Punishment or solution?

Punishment or solution?

  • Punishment.

    Votes: 5 20.8%
  • Solution.

    Votes: 19 79.2%

  • Total voters
    24
By all means, do present your list of tried and true "solutions" that will go a long ways to solving this crime problem.

Who ever said anything about "tried and true"? The problem that I am bringing up is that this country focus's more on punishments than solutions. And that practice is a failure. So why not change our methods?
 
Your point? The question of the thread is "which do you prefer?". I never said that punishment was not needed or should be stopped altogether. But I do believe that solutions need to be had. The problem being that we don't have hardly any. We have drug rehabilitation facilities, AA and not much else.

Also you should prolly note that I am talking about major crimes and not piddly ones like texting while driving.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think "piddly" crimes like texting while driving shouldn't warrant a jail sentence, and that would go hand-in-hand with the point you are trying to make in regards to solutions > punishments.
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

as I recall, the recidivism rate for felons who are punished with death is zero.
 
Are you insinuating we execute all felons?

All? no. we have a fence along the southern border that needs a moat dug, and a pipeline up in Alaska that needs workers.

but murderers and violent rapists? yup. preferably in public. murderers to be expanded to those who took actions that were conceivably intended to kill someone, but failed. drop a shopping cart on someone's head from an overpass - they take you out in front of your neighborhood and hang you. let all your "boys" see how "tough" you are when you are crying and pooping and choking. that will have effect -not like our current idiotic over-costly system where the deed is separated from the punishment.
 
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Who ever said anything about "tried and true"? The problem that I am bringing up is that this country focus's more on punishments than solutions. And that practice is a failure. So why not change our methods?

By all means, I am open to reading about such suggestions. Please do present them.
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?


Solutions; the punishments are severe enough,IMO....
Simply adding to them is just plain "stupid".
The solution includes an abatement of "privacy".....in order to prevent the care and feeding of a future criminal..
In other words, early intervention can walk in much more easily and stop child abuse. Of course, we probably need a lot of improvement in detecting abuse... and controlling it..
 
All? no. we have a fence along the southern border that needs a moat dug, and a pipeline up in Alaska that needs workers.

but murderers and violent rapists? yup. preferably in public. murderers to be expanded to those who took actions that were conceivably intended to kill someone, but failed. drop a shopping cart on someone's head from an overpass - they take you out in front of your neighborhood and hang you. let all your "boys" see how "tough" you are when you are crying and pooping and choking. that will have effect -not like our current idiotic over-costly system where the deed is separated from the punishment.

Why not torture them first in the public square? How about burning them to the stake?

Frankly, if you're not willing to inject the lethal dose of potassium chloride, then maybe you should reconsider your own convictions. But I suppose you'd take the job.
 
Why not torture them first in the public square? How about burning them to the stake?

neither is necessary and both would probably violate the Constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. hanging is well within our tradition, though firing squad would work just as well.

Frankly, if you're not willing to inject the lethal dose of potassium chloride, then maybe you should reconsider your own convictions. But I suppose you'd take the job.

:shrug: I wouldn't have any moral qualms with it. Much easier than the shades-of-grey decisions we faced in Iraq. :) It probably wouldn't pay well enough to attract me, though.
 
All? no. we have a fence along the southern border that needs a moat dug, and a pipeline up in Alaska that needs workers.
I favor the line, but the "moat" ???
The moat protects those in their ivory towers , these people need to be booted out and exposed..

but murderers and violent rapists? yup. preferably in public. murderers to be expanded to those who took actions that were conceivably intended to kill someone, but failed. drop a shopping cart on someone's head from an overpass - they take you out in front of your neighborhood and hang you. let all your "boys" see how "tough" you are when you are crying and pooping and choking. that will have effect -not like our current idiotic over-costly system where the deed is separated from the punishment.

Our level of civilization is reflected on how we handle our "criminals".
Cp, IMO, your methods did not work in the 6th century nor the 16th century...why should they work today ????
Love is more effective than hate.
 
I favor the line, but the "moat" ???
The moat protects those in their ivory towers , these people need to be booted out and exposed..

the line is no different from the moat. you are simply artificially increasing the height of the line and creating a "no mans land" that can be utilized for ground-sensor-collection and rapid response.

Our level of civilization is reflected on how we handle our "criminals"

murderers and violent rapists are absolutely criminals. no quotation marks needed.

Cp, IMO, your methods did not work in the 6th century nor the 16th century...why should they work today ????

fascinating. you have reliable murder rate records of a non-state nature from the 6th Century?

you need to turn those in to some good classic Midieval Archives right away. They will pay you quite handsomely for those.

Love is more effective than hate.

and an armed populace is more effective than either when it comes to deterring crime.



neither love nor hate is the goal of punishing those guilty of the most heinous crimes.
 
neither is necessary and both would probably violate the Constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. hanging is well within our tradition, though firing squad would work just as well.



:shrug: I wouldn't have any moral qualms with it. Much easier than the shades-of-grey decisions we faced in Iraq. :) It probably wouldn't pay well enough to attract me, though.

Why do you insist on imitating the brutal acts of third world dictatorships? Hanging in the public square? What if the neck doesn't break? How does strangulation that takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes NOT cruel and unusual punishment?
 
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

PUNISHMENT. The problem is that we no longer know what PUNISHMENT truly is in this society. Our prisons look more like spas than actual prisons. We fail to incarcerate a large percentage of the criminals, choosing instead to fine them or use some other form of non-punishment. We aren't even able to convict an acceptable rate of the criminals in our society. When we actually return to PUNISHMENT, things will turn around, but not until then.
 
PUNISHMENT. The problem is that we no longer know what PUNISHMENT truly is in this society. Our prisons look more like spas than actual prisons. We fail to incarcerate a large percentage of the criminals, choosing instead to fine them or use some other form of non-punishment. We aren't even able to convict an acceptable rate of the criminals in our society. When we actually return to PUNISHMENT, things will turn around, but not until then.

Spa? Tell that to Ted Kaczynski. I've never been to a spa where they lock you up in a windowless, 7 x 12 foot concrete and metal, soundproof cell for 23 hours a day.
 
Spa? Tell that to Ted Kaczynski. I've never been to a spa where they lock you up in a windowless, 7 x 12 foot concrete and metal, soundproof cell for 23 hours a day.

Realizing that my personal vision of a proper prison is essentially Alcatraz, Mensch. I'm talking utter silence, almost zero contact with any other human being, no tv, no workout rooms, etc.... You may think that's cruel and inhumane but you have to consider my other alternative, immediate execution for any felony conviction. Straight from the appeals court to the gallows.
 
Realizing that my personal vision of a proper prison is essentially Alcatraz, Mensch. I'm talking utter silence, almost zero contact with any other human being, no tv, no workout rooms, etc.... You may think that's cruel and inhumane but you have to consider my other alternative, immediate execution for any felony conviction. Straight from the appeals court to the gallows.

Immediate execution? Really? What's wrong with a little bit of the ultra-violence before we extinguish the life?
 
You and I (conservative, liberal) completely disagree on everything...
We need to compromise.
I doubt if I can prove any points , but check out murder rates....
And then converse with a murderer....
And your "moat" or "line"...
Why do you hate your fellow man so ?
The "fellow man" includes the Mexican, the so-called illegal....
If I were in his shoes, I'd do the same thing !
No question, I'd never make it as a hangman.... I would hate the man who murdered then raped the woman....he would suffer !

"Our level" of civilization is reflected on how well we treat our criminals...without """....
IMO, we are NOT civilizated...
We can be, we should be, why this fear ???
Talk with a murderer...too bad that this(with our rules) cannot be done....
 
Realizing that my personal vision of a proper prison is essentially Alcatraz, Mensch. I'm talking utter silence, almost zero contact with any other human being, no tv, no workout rooms, etc.... You may think that's cruel and inhumane but you have to consider my other alternative, immediate execution for any felony conviction. Straight from the appeals court to the gallows.

Nearly exactly as I felt and believed....when I was a child...even a child of 40 years.
Now, I think I am an adult and I care not to be inhumane..in any way.....
Think about this for 40 years !
 
Why do you insist on imitating the brutal acts of third world dictatorships?

:shrug: i see no reason to say that intelligent application of the death penalty is inherently dictatorial. emotionalism makes for an excellent demagougic, but a poor debate strategy.

Hanging in the public square? What if the neck doesn't break? How does strangulation that takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes NOT cruel and unusual punishment?

strangulation does not take 10-20 minutes unless you've made a complete cockup of it. the restriction in the bloodflow alone typically ensures unconsciousness in about 30 seconds.

however, Hanging is solidly within the American legal tradition, and there is no reason to suppose it is inherently cruel, as it is certainly not unusual. If we were to attempt to ensure that the person was fully conscious for 20 minutes of slow strangulation - that would be cruelty.
 
:shrug: i see no reason to say that intelligent application of the death penalty is inherently dictatorial. emotionalism makes for an excellent demagougic, but a poor debate strategy.

My statement is accurate if you consider world events. Nearly all (if not all) developed countries have eliminated the death penalty. The US, along with a handful of third world countries (I admit it's growing) use lethal injection as their primary means of execution. The rest use some form of barbaric, 18th century method. Where do you often find public hangings? Largely in places where there is a totalitarian government. Granted, I realize you're not trying to emulate these countries, only our own 18th century traditions, you have to admit they're a lot alike.

strangulation does not take 10-20 minutes unless you've made a complete cockup of it. the restriction in the bloodflow alone typically ensures unconsciousness in about 30 seconds.

I wasn't talking specifically about unconsciousness when I referenced 10-20 minutes. And why would 30 seconds of severe pain and agony be appropriate under the 8th Amendment?

however, Hanging is solidly within the American legal tradition, and there is no reason to suppose it is inherently cruel, as it is certainly not unusual. If we were to attempt to ensure that the person was fully conscious for 20 minutes of slow strangulation - that would be cruelty.

It is very unusual in the Western world today. Tradition does not legitimize an act.
 
38 views and several hours later and no one has an opinion on this? No votes? Is my question really that hard to answer?

Punishment is a solution. I'd be happy to say there are other potential solutions, too. The most basic solutions begin early in the development of a child. If they grow up with parents who don't know how to live in a "civilized" society, then it's hard for them to learn how to be "civilized". In this case, I'm defining civilized as being in accordance with behavior that society doesn't want to punish.

I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a tv. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.

So, if you're looking for a "solution" in addition to punishment, I suggest first admitting that the welfare state has failed. 2nd, eliminate support of the "anti-social" immediately. And, 3rd, wait about 15-30 years for the current anti-social generation to age. During that time, use harsh punishment and long jail terms for offenses demonstrating a lack of knowledge about what society expects.
 
Punishment is a solution. I'd be happy to say there are other potential solutions, too. The most basic solutions begin early in the development of a child. If they grow up with parents who don't know how to live in a "civilized" society, then it's hard for them to learn how to be "civilized". In this case, I'm defining civilized as being in accordance with behavior that society doesn't want to punish.And it has been demonstrated quite well that society cares not to punish those who use drugs...and a majority seem to favor legalization of marajuana...

I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a TV. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.

So, if you're looking for a "solution" in addition to punishment, I suggest first admitting that the welfare state has failed. 2nd, eliminate support of the "anti-social" immediately...Well, that includes me !. And, 3rd, wait about 15-30 years for the current anti-social generation to age. During that time, use harsh punishment and long jail terms for offenses demonstrating a lack of knowledge about what society expects.
Strange...but I'd favor equal persecution against those who steal.....To me there is a large difference between 2.5K million and 2.5K .....
Its my feeling that the thief who steals from the corporation or from an individual is also stealing from all of us..
Has the "welfare state" failed ?
Does it exist ?
Ask Rush !
For things to improve, we will need a better people.
 
Strange...but I'd favor equal persecution against those who steal.....To me there is a large difference between 2.5K million and 2.5K .....
Its my feeling that the thief who steals from the corporation or from an individual is also stealing from all of us..
Has the "welfare state" failed ?
Does it exist ?
Ask Rush !
For things to improve, we will need a better people.

Just to clarify, the stuff in red in post #72 above was added to my quote from earthworm. I am not in favor of punishing him because while the action is somewhat antisocial, it does not scare me at all, and it is not something we, as a society, have to deal with very often.
 
PUNISHMENT. The problem is that we no longer know what PUNISHMENT truly is in this society. Our prisons look more like spas than actual prisons. We fail to incarcerate a large percentage of the criminals, choosing instead to fine them or use some other form of non-punishment. We aren't even able to convict an acceptable rate of the criminals in our society. When we actually return to PUNISHMENT, things will turn around, but not until then.


I believe you would have a different outlook on prison if you spent any time there, it is anything but a spa (granted some federal white crime prisons are a bit soft but a majority do not fit this description). While they may have TV's, radios, small luxury items, these are used as a tool to encourage good behavior. If you strip everything away from prisoners what motivation do they have to behave? after all they are already in prison. It also works as a means to occupy them, an occupied prisoner is less likely to cause problems then a bored idol prisoner. Many will lash out and misbehave simply to entertain themselves because they have no other means to pass the time.

Prison is much more then simply being locked away and removed from society, you are also removed from your family, job, home, friends, ability to prosper or improve ones financial being and this can be a very difficult thing to cope with. Many of us are wired to want to achieve and better our situations. It is knowing you are helpless to do ANYTHING about anything that can be a real punishment. This also does not take into consideration the living in fear of your life day in and day out. Prison is a nasty place were prisoners constantly pray on one another. You live your live wondering if today is the day you are going to be stabbed, raped, or killed for no reason at all. It is VERY VERY stressful.

Locking away persons in solitary for long lenths of time have been proven to cause a high amount of mental health issues right up to full blown insanity. Humans are wired to be social animals and are not meant to be solidarity confined. Many herd animals such as sheep or cattle for example will suffer (less healthy, lack of weight, poor immune function, ect.) if left in solitude and some have been known to outright die. What purpose would it server to mentally mess prisoners up if we ever hope to release them?

If you think prison is so easy peasy and cushy why dont you take a couple gallons of water and a few sadwiches and lock yourself into a closet with no contact for 48 hours, it should be simple right. My bet is you wouldn't consider such a thing so imagine living largely that way for 20 years. And living in a closet would be easier in many ways over living in a prison. Imagine back to your life 20 years ago and imagine that everything you have done and experienced, times you have enjoyed, time spent with family all gone poof! Its no so easy...
 
PUNISHMENT. The problem is that we no longer know what PUNISHMENT truly is in this society. Our prisons look more like spas than actual prisons. We fail to incarcerate a large percentage of the criminals, choosing instead to fine them or use some other form of non-punishment. We aren't even able to convict an acceptable rate of the criminals in our society. When we actually return to PUNISHMENT, things will turn around, but not until then.

Have you ever been in a maximum or even a heavy security prison? From you remarks about a spa it would seem not.
 
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