View Poll Results: Punishment or solution?

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  • Punishment.

    5 18.52%
  • Solution.

    22 81.48%
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Thread: Punishment or solution?

  1. #71
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    38 views and several hours later and no one has an opinion on this? No votes? Is my question really that hard to answer?
    Punishment is a solution. I'd be happy to say there are other potential solutions, too. The most basic solutions begin early in the development of a child. If they grow up with parents who don't know how to live in a "civilized" society, then it's hard for them to learn how to be "civilized". In this case, I'm defining civilized as being in accordance with behavior that society doesn't want to punish.

    I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a tv. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.

    So, if you're looking for a "solution" in addition to punishment, I suggest first admitting that the welfare state has failed. 2nd, eliminate support of the "anti-social" immediately. And, 3rd, wait about 15-30 years for the current anti-social generation to age. During that time, use harsh punishment and long jail terms for offenses demonstrating a lack of knowledge about what society expects.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  2. #72
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Punishment is a solution. I'd be happy to say there are other potential solutions, too. The most basic solutions begin early in the development of a child. If they grow up with parents who don't know how to live in a "civilized" society, then it's hard for them to learn how to be "civilized". In this case, I'm defining civilized as being in accordance with behavior that society doesn't want to punish.And it has been demonstrated quite well that society cares not to punish those who use drugs...and a majority seem to favor legalization of marajuana...

    I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a TV. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.

    So, if you're looking for a "solution" in addition to punishment, I suggest first admitting that the welfare state has failed. 2nd, eliminate support of the "anti-social" immediately...Well, that includes me !. And, 3rd, wait about 15-30 years for the current anti-social generation to age. During that time, use harsh punishment and long jail terms for offenses demonstrating a lack of knowledge about what society expects.
    Strange...but I'd favor equal persecution against those who steal.....To me there is a large difference between 2.5K million and 2.5K .....
    Its my feeling that the thief who steals from the corporation or from an individual is also stealing from all of us..
    Has the "welfare state" failed ?
    Does it exist ?
    Ask Rush !
    For things to improve, we will need a better people.

  3. #73
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Strange...but I'd favor equal persecution against those who steal.....To me there is a large difference between 2.5K million and 2.5K .....
    Its my feeling that the thief who steals from the corporation or from an individual is also stealing from all of us..
    Has the "welfare state" failed ?
    Does it exist ?
    Ask Rush !
    For things to improve, we will need a better people.
    Just to clarify, the stuff in red in post #72 above was added to my quote from earthworm. I am not in favor of punishing him because while the action is somewhat antisocial, it does not scare me at all, and it is not something we, as a society, have to deal with very often.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  4. #74
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    PUNISHMENT. The problem is that we no longer know what PUNISHMENT truly is in this society. Our prisons look more like spas than actual prisons. We fail to incarcerate a large percentage of the criminals, choosing instead to fine them or use some other form of non-punishment. We aren't even able to convict an acceptable rate of the criminals in our society. When we actually return to PUNISHMENT, things will turn around, but not until then.

    I believe you would have a different outlook on prison if you spent any time there, it is anything but a spa (granted some federal white crime prisons are a bit soft but a majority do not fit this description). While they may have TV's, radios, small luxury items, these are used as a tool to encourage good behavior. If you strip everything away from prisoners what motivation do they have to behave? after all they are already in prison. It also works as a means to occupy them, an occupied prisoner is less likely to cause problems then a bored idol prisoner. Many will lash out and misbehave simply to entertain themselves because they have no other means to pass the time.

    Prison is much more then simply being locked away and removed from society, you are also removed from your family, job, home, friends, ability to prosper or improve ones financial being and this can be a very difficult thing to cope with. Many of us are wired to want to achieve and better our situations. It is knowing you are helpless to do ANYTHING about anything that can be a real punishment. This also does not take into consideration the living in fear of your life day in and day out. Prison is a nasty place were prisoners constantly pray on one another. You live your live wondering if today is the day you are going to be stabbed, raped, or killed for no reason at all. It is VERY VERY stressful.

    Locking away persons in solitary for long lenths of time have been proven to cause a high amount of mental health issues right up to full blown insanity. Humans are wired to be social animals and are not meant to be solidarity confined. Many herd animals such as sheep or cattle for example will suffer (less healthy, lack of weight, poor immune function, ect.) if left in solitude and some have been known to outright die. What purpose would it server to mentally mess prisoners up if we ever hope to release them?

    If you think prison is so easy peasy and cushy why dont you take a couple gallons of water and a few sadwiches and lock yourself into a closet with no contact for 48 hours, it should be simple right. My bet is you wouldn't consider such a thing so imagine living largely that way for 20 years. And living in a closet would be easier in many ways over living in a prison. Imagine back to your life 20 years ago and imagine that everything you have done and experienced, times you have enjoyed, time spent with family all gone poof! Its no so easy...

  5. #75
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    PUNISHMENT. The problem is that we no longer know what PUNISHMENT truly is in this society. Our prisons look more like spas than actual prisons. We fail to incarcerate a large percentage of the criminals, choosing instead to fine them or use some other form of non-punishment. We aren't even able to convict an acceptable rate of the criminals in our society. When we actually return to PUNISHMENT, things will turn around, but not until then.
    Have you ever been in a maximum or even a heavy security prison? From you remarks about a spa it would seem not.
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  6. #76
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a tv. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.
    I think those "social chameleons" you describe are more dangerous than a common thief and they deserve the harshest punishment. It's almost always your money because the corporation isn't going to take it on the chin. I guarantee they will make up that money some way or other. So, unless it's Lamborghini or a yacht manufacturer that got ripped off, you, I, and everybody else will make up any losses from the theft.


    As a side note: The thief who steals a TV will make up for it by being subject to other laws as well as theft - for example, B&E and trespassing.
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  7. #77
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    By all means, I am open to reading about such suggestions. Please do present them.
    You might be open to reading about them. But you are certainly not open to wanting them put into effect.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  8. #78
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Punishment is a solution. I'd be happy to say there are other potential solutions, too. The most basic solutions begin early in the development of a child. If they grow up with parents who don't know how to live in a "civilized" society, then it's hard for them to learn how to be "civilized". In this case, I'm defining civilized as being in accordance with behavior that society doesn't want to punish.
    By itself punishment might be a solution...but is it the correct solution?

    When we punish those that commit crimes why not take that opportunity to actually try and reform them? Counsuling would prolly help for those that were just taught wrong by their parents. Counsuling AND medical drugs might help others. There might be other ways in which to help people also. Advancement in technology may bring forth other things that may help.

    I know that while I was in jail not once did a counsulor come to see me. No psych evaluation was performed. Nothing. I was convicted, sent to jail where I served part of my sentence, got out saw my PO once a month and paid my fines/restitution. That was it. Now I was luckier than most, I had a family that loved me and wanted to help me after I got out and was able to help me which helped me change into the person that I am now. Most people don't. Has it been easy? Hell no. I'm not the same person that I was when I was 18 and yet soceity still treats me as such. Why do they do this? I've come to the conclusion that its because society knows that we have no system in place for reforming criminals so they can only assume that the person is still bad. So in essence society keeps the punishment going, mainly out of fear.


    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a tv. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.
    This really makes no sense to me. You're willing to punish a person harder for stealing a $200-$1,000 tv than a person that steals millions in money?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    So, if you're looking for a "solution" in addition to punishment, I suggest first admitting that the welfare state has failed. 2nd, eliminate support of the "anti-social" immediately. And, 3rd, wait about 15-30 years for the current anti-social generation to age. During that time, use harsh punishment and long jail terms for offenses demonstrating a lack of knowledge about what society expects.
    How does the "welfare state" promote criminal acts?

    What do you mean by "eliminate support of the anti-social"? And why is "anti-social" phrase in quotation marks?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #79
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    My statement is accurate if you consider world events
    so is this one: both Nazi Germany and the USSR had nationalized health care. Liberals who want us to nationalize healthcare want us to emulate Nazi Germany.

    This is an accurate statement that is nonetheless a de facto falsehood, because you are attempting to confuse horrific portions of a regime which we do not emulate with standard portions of a regime which plenty of nations share. It is not that dictatorships may have a death penalty that is horrific, it is that they impose it arbitrarily on innocents with or without rule of law that is horrific.

    Nearly all (if not all) developed countries have eliminated the death penalty. The US, along with a handful of third world countries (I admit it's growing) use lethal injection as their primary means of execution.
    lethal injection is one route. Given that we have the twin goals of "death penalty as a deterrent" and "no cruel or unusual punishment", I don't happen to think it is optimal, but it's up to the States.

    Granted, I realize you're not trying to emulate these countries, only our own 18th century traditions, you have to admit they're a lot alike.
    not really - (again) you are here mistaking form for function. There is a world of difference between hanging a child-murderer after he receives a fair trial and hanging a potential political rival with no trial before also exiling or killing his family.

    I wasn't talking specifically about unconsciousness when I referenced 10-20 minutes. And why would 30 seconds of severe pain and agony be appropriate under the 8th Amendment?
    I wouldn't know about the rope portion of it (I imagine it would feel like a very bad rug burn), but I've been choked out a a number of times from having the blood vessels in my neck constricted during groundfighting training, and the discomfort is not particularly tortuous.

    It is very unusual in the Western world today. Tradition does not legitimize an act.
    Depends on the assault on it. If, for example, you were to attack hanging as an unConstitutional form of punishment under the "cruel and unusual" clause, then our tradition and history of it would indeed be pertinent.

  10. #80
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    neither is necessary and both would probably violate the Constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. hanging is well within our tradition, though firing squad would work just as well.

    I wouldn't have any moral qualms with it. Much easier than the shades-of-grey decisions we faced in Iraq. It probably wouldn't pay well enough to attract me, though.
    The satisfaction wouldn't be enough?

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