View Poll Results: Punishment or solution?

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  • Punishment.

    5 18.52%
  • Solution.

    22 81.48%
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Thread: Punishment or solution?

  1. #11
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

    Which do you prefer?
    the war on drugs has proven to be an abject failure

    punishing market driven "crimes" is stupid because if you remove the source of supply of something the market demands, then another person is driven by economic opportunity to fill the void and the more "illegal" the commodity is-the more lucrative it becomes in many cases

    Now crimes driven purely by malevolent motivations-such as child rape etc can only be stopped by incapacitating the person harboring such motivations.

    but if we stopped criminalizing market driven activity, you would stop lots of the ancillary criminal activity that comes from the prosecution of the main crime (ie theft to pay for artificially high priced narcotics)

  2. #12
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Attachment 67124648

    I'd say we need both.

    Punishment for the guy on the left.

    A solution for the guy on the right.

    actually that bit is inaccurate. Under the federal sentencing guidelines, massive amounts stolen even if its 10 dollars per person from a million people (meaning no one was seriously harmed) is going to result in a huge "offense level" (like 35 points or so) leading to 10+ years in federal prison (and fraud is accompanied by all sorts of other charges such as "using a communication device to facilitate a conspiracy" etc).

    The second guy's sentence (which was not explained) usually results from one or two extras

    1) recidivist enhancements

    2) MANDATORY consecutive enhancements (ie time for the crime PLUS extra time for the enhancement) of using a weapon in the commission of a crime (thus making it a CRIME OF VIOLENCE)

  3. #13
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

    Which do you prefer?
    There are certainly things to be wary of. The real problem is as you say, things only get tacked on; nothing is ever removed. As a result you end up with laws and lists for everything. The United States has one of the highest incarceration rate of the industrialized world. Actually, I just looked this up in Wikipedia….highest in the world. Seriously, think about that! Russia and China CANNOT COMPARE to our incarceration rate. WTF is up with that?

    Are Americans really that much more inclined to commit crimes? Are we naturally that much harder to control than the rest of the entire world? Do we inherently fight back more than anyone else on the planet? Or is our government more aggressive than all others in making and enforcing law? Land of the free, yes? Would you imagine Land of the Free, the Shining City on the Hill, the example to all what freedom and democracy can look like to have the highest incarceration rate IN THE WORLD!!??

    Do we need more laws? Or do we just need better laws? Laws in which the government is actually restrained, constrained to the edicts of the constitution and forced to uphold our rights and recognize our humanity. Here’s a scary thought, how many laws did you break on your way to work this morning? Sometimes people don’t even know that they’re breaking laws because of the sheer number of laws on the books. You all broke some laws going in, you’ll all break some laws going home. You’re merely at the behest of government and whether or not they decide to **** with you that day.

    Land of the Free? At one time yes, not anymore. The Shining City is now tarnished. Thank you Republocrats for stealing the Republic out from underneath us.
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  4. #14
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

    Which do you prefer?
    The main purpose of justice is to punish the offender in order to deter that offender from commuting future offenses and to deter potential offenders. Some offenses are punished with commit service,some are punished with fines,some are punished with time in jail or prison and some are punished with the death penalty. The question should be is that punishment adequate for that offense.

    Personally I think many offenses should have a mandatory minimum and eliminate these fake rich guy prisons so that we don't have rich guy criminals going to fake prison for a few months and regular Joe schmoe criminals going to real prison for a long time.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 03-23-12 at 10:58 AM.
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  5. #15
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    actually that bit is inaccurate. Under the federal sentencing guidelines, massive amounts stolen even if its 10 dollars per person from a million people (meaning no one was seriously harmed) is going to result in a huge "offense level" (like 35 points or so) leading to 10+ years in federal prison (and fraud is accompanied by all sorts of other charges such as "using a communication device to facilitate a conspiracy" etc).

    The second guy's sentence (which was not explained) usually results from one or two extras

    1) recidivist enhancements

    2) MANDATORY consecutive enhancements (ie time for the crime PLUS extra time for the enhancement) of using a weapon in the commission of a crime (thus making it a CRIME OF VIOLENCE)
    Bo Brownstein:

    NEW YORK -- The Denver owner of a hedge fund was sentenced Wednesday to a year and a day in prison after he admitted making up to $2.5 million by trading on insider information he got from a longtime friend. U.S. District Judge Robert Patterson also ordered 35-year-old Drew "Bo" Brownstein to serve six months of home confinement and to perform 500 hours of community service. He fined him $7,500 and signed an order requiring him to forfeit $2.4 million in illegal profits.
    Junior Allen:

    Allen was 30 years old in 1970 when he walked into the unlocked home of an 87-year-old woman near Benson, N.C., and took her 19-inch Motorola. He hid the $140 TV in the woods, but never watched it. Police followed his footprints and quickly arrested him at his labor camp...By then, he had a rap sheet that included burglaries and a violent assault....Under the law of the day, a jury sentenced him to life in prison for second-degree burglary -- a crime that today would carry a maximum punishment of three years.
    Junior Allen Prison | TV Thief Regains Life Taken by Jail Sentence - Los Angeles Times
    Drew 'Bo' Brownstein: NY Judge Sentences Denver Trader To Year In Prison For Insider Trading

    You're right, he had a couple other offenses...including a violent assault. Still...

    A year and a day?
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  6. #16
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Sentence people by degree of economic impact.

  7. #17
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

    Which do you prefer?
    Are you implying that the law makers have become more draconian in their legislative actions related to crime?

  8. #18
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are certainly things to be wary of. The real problem is as you say, things only get tacked on; nothing is ever removed. As a result you end up with laws and lists for everything. The United States has one of the highest incarceration rate of the industrialized world. Actually, I just looked this up in Wikipedia….highest in the world. Seriously, think about that! Russia and China CANNOT COMPARE to our incarceration rate. WTF is up with that?

    Are Americans really that much more inclined to commit crimes? Are we naturally that much harder to control than the rest of the entire world? Do we inherently fight back more than anyone else on the planet? Or is our government more aggressive than all others in making and enforcing law? Land of the free, yes? Would you imagine Land of the Free, the Shining City on the Hill, the example to all what freedom and democracy can look like to have the highest incarceration rate IN THE WORLD!!??

    Do we need more laws? Or do we just need better laws? Laws in which the government is actually restrained, constrained to the edicts of the constitution and forced to uphold our rights and recognize our humanity. Here’s a scary thought, how many laws did you break on your way to work this morning? Sometimes people don’t even know that they’re breaking laws because of the sheer number of laws on the books. You all broke some laws going in, you’ll all break some laws going home. You’re merely at the behest of government and whether or not they decide to **** with you that day.

    Land of the Free? At one time yes, not anymore. The Shining City is now tarnished. Thank you Republocrats for stealing the Republic out from underneath us.
    Damn preach it!

    Well black males make up 40% of the US prison population while only making up 13% of the US population (that includes women as well). The vast majority of these men are held on drug sale and possession charges and other non violent crimes. The disparity in sentencing and the useless war on drugs are the main reasons for this. So we could get rid of 25 to 30% of our prison population by addressing this disparity and covert racism.
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  9. #19
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Restorative justice works. Compared with punitive systems, recidivism is lower, and upon released, criminals are more able to enter the workforce and become productive citizens. It's tried. It's true. And it works. Once we stop wanting to hurt people and take revenge on them, and starting helping people who are, quite often, in the position they are as a result of violence at home as kids, and extreme poverty, then we can rehabilitate these people. Think about it. Less crime, more productive people in the workforce, more tax dollars. What's not to like? Oh yeah, it's more expensive and less profitable for the private prison companies...

    Remember that whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing? Apply that to thieves, drug dealers, and gang members, and they can become law abiding citizens.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  10. #20
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    Re: Punishment or solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Restorative justice works. Compared with punitive systems, recidivism is lower, and upon released, criminals are more able to enter the workforce and become productive citizens. It's tried. It's true. And it works. Once we stop wanting to hurt people and take revenge on them, and starting helping people who are, quite often, in the position they are as a result of violence at home as kids, and extreme poverty, then we can rehabilitate these people. Think about it. Less crime, more productive people in the workforce, more tax dollars. What's not to like? Oh yeah, it's more expensive and less profitable for the private prison companies...

    Remember that whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing? Apply that to thieves, drug dealers, and gang members, and they can become law abiding citizens.
    I agree the population today is punishment oriented. There's not enough rehabilitative resources being applied. But there also has to be some corrective measures being taken or nothing is learned. Don't treat incarcerated people like animals but don't make it a country club either.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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