View Poll Results: Should women be allowed in combat roles in military?

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Thread: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

  1. #271
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What this shows it that you misunderstand the argument being made. I'm not arguing that women are stronger than males. I'm arguing that the assumption MAY be wrong.
    I know exactly what you are saying, you are the one not getting it. The fact is it is NOT AN ASSUMPTION, IT IS A FACT. It is not wrong in any way. Modern science has tons of evidence showing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    So, no, you have not offered any evidence based on what I'm arguing.
    Yes I have. The studies show that men on average are much stronger than the female counterpart. So much so military's in most modern country's have decided women in ground combat rolls are counter productive and a waist of resources.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-20-12 at 05:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #272
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I know and you are not getting it. The fact is it is NOT AN ASSUMPTION, IT IS A FACT. It is not wrong in any way. Modern science has tons of evidence showing this.
    State clearly: Showing what exactly?

    Yes I have. The studies show that men on average are much stronger than the female counterpart. So much so military's in most modern country's have decided women in combat rolls are counter productive and a waist of resources.
    Again, I'm not arguing anything dealing with whose is or isn't stronger. As long as you keep going back to who is stronger, you are not addressing my argument. Sorry.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #273
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No they can't. Are you going to address the evidence I have posted saying that they are not capable of ground combat rolls on any kind of reasonable scale. Or are you just going to voice opinion with no evidence to back it up?
    I was clear in my expression of if they can perform the duties, they should be able to fulfill them. I have looked over the British study for the Center for Military Readiness and that study certainly shows a lack of equality in performing front-line combat roles.

    I don't necessarily agree with clumping all women in the 'inadequate' category b/c a large majority cannot fulfill that role; however, if, through such studies as the above mentioned, the decision is made to completely ban women from the front-line b/c it is not cost effective or the best use of time to put even some women who may be able to perform the physical tasks with passing grades through the tests, then fine. Also, as noted in the study, men tend to act more instinctively than professionally with women front-line personnel.

    But, the purpose of the military is to train professionalism and instinctiveness. If the will existed, i.e., if a far, far greater number of women on average could perform the physical tasks necessary for front-line deployment, i'm sure the "instinctual behaviour over professional behaviour" could be managed.

  4. #274
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    State clearly: Showing what exactly?
    When it comes to modern combat, you still need endurance and physical strength to be effective in a ground combat roll. Without this, no matter how many different ways you try, you will fail, period. Just like the majority of women in the studies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, I'm not arguing anything dealing with whose is or isn't stronger. As long as you keep going back to who is stronger, you are not addressing my argument. Sorry.
    I know exactly what your argument is. It is just a far fetched premise based on loose philosophy that means nothing in the real world, and does not in any way fit real world examples. I mean really the assumption according to your examples was down right stupid. Hell Jerry had no idea what you where even asking because you were so obtuse.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-20-12 at 05:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  5. #275
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    I was clear in my expression of if they can perform the duties, they should be able to fulfill them. I have looked over the British study for the Center for Military Readiness and that study certainly shows a lack of equality in performing front-line combat roles.

    I don't necessarily agree with clumping all women in the 'inadequate' category b/c a large majority cannot fulfill that role; however, if, through such studies as the above mentioned, the decision is made to completely ban women from the front-line b/c it is not cost effective or the best use of time to put even some women who may be able to perform the physical tasks with passing grades through the tests, then fine. Also, as noted in the study, men tend to act more instinctively than professionally with women front-line personnel.

    But, the purpose of the military is to train professionalism and instinctiveness. If the will existed, i.e., if a far, far greater number of women on average could perform the physical tasks necessary for front-line deployment, i'm sure the "instinctual behaviour over professional behaviour" could be managed.
    No I agree, no reason to ban women from the front lines as they preform admirably and are just as effect as their male counter parts. No one is suggesting this as I said.

    The only thing being said is they should not be in ground combat units as in infantry, armor and artillary because of the physical makeup of the female body. It is just not geared for ground combat rolls.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-20-12 at 05:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #276
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No I agree, no reason to ban women from the front lines as they preform admirably and are just as effect as their male counter parts. No one is suggesting this as I said.

    The only thing being said is they should not be in ground combat units as in infantry, armor and artillary because of the physical makeup of the female body. It is just not geared for ground combat rolls.
    I agree the average women's body is not able to do these tasks as an average male's, but I wouldn't want to preclude the exception, for I'm sure there are some women who can do these tasks within the spectrum of 'male acceptability.' If no such women exists, then, no, they certainly shouldn't be able to fill those posts.

    Also, before said women could fulfill such roles, the issue of "more instinct than professional" would have to be trained out of their male counterparts.

  7. #277
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    When it comes to modern combat, you still need endurance and physical strength to be effective in a ground combat roll. Without this, no matter how many different ways you try, you will fail, period. Just like the majority of women in the studies.
    No where near as important than it used to be. But has very little to do with I'm arguing.

    Some reading to think about:

    Thanks to my friend Michael who prompted me to write an article with more ‘meaty’ content. In honor of potential 2012 Presidential Candidate Newt Gingrich, I thought I would focus on women in combat.

    Women Warriors – A History of Real Women in Combat « Indiana Jen

    The Soviet Union deployed women snipers extensively, and to great effect, including Nina Alexeyevna Lobkovskaya and Ukrainian Lyudmila Pavlichenko (who killed over 300 German soldiers). The Soviets found that sniper duties fit women well, since good snipers are patient, deliberate, have a high level of aerobic conditioning, and normally avoid hand-to-hand combat.

    Women served as machine gunners, tank drivers, medics, communication personnel and political officers. Manshuk Mametova was a machine gunner from Kazakhstan and was the first Soviet Asian woman to receive the Hero of the Soviet Union for acts of bravery.

    Women crewed the majority of the anti-aircraft batteries employed in Stalingrad. Some batteries, including the 1077th Anti-Aircraft Regiment, also engaged in ground combat.

    Soviet women in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The evidence – from large-scale organized female participation through various types of gender integration through the participation of individual women – shows that when women have found their way into combat, they have generally performed about as well as most men have.

    http://www.warandgender.com/chap2pap.htm

    I know exactly what your argument is. It is just a far fetched premise based on loose philosophy that means nothing in the real world, and does not in any way fit real world examples. I mean really the assumption according to your examples was down right stupid. Hell Jerry had no idea what you where even asking because you were so obtuse.
    You think it is far fetched because you don't challenge the assumption. I come with no fixed philosophy. I don't even have an opinion on whether women are or are not strong enough. This depends on what we mean by enough. I have only asked if the standard is as correct as we think it is.

    So, you are still not addressing me.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #278
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    I agree the average women's body is not able to do these tasks as an average male's, but I wouldn't want to preclude the exception, for I'm sure there are some women who can do these tasks within the spectrum of 'male acceptability.' If no such women exists, then, no, they certainly shouldn't be able to fill those posts.

    Also, before said women could fulfill such roles, the issue of "more instinct than professional" would have to be trained out of their male counterparts.
    The problem is the number of women who could fulfill the roles would be minimum. Lets not even go into extended time in the field without support. Just to many issues for something that is not needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #279
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #280
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No where near as important than it used to be. But has very little to do with I'm arguing.
    How would you know? Have you been in the military? It looked pretty important in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Some reading to think about:

    Thanks to my friend Michael who prompted me to write an article with more ‘meaty’ content. In honor of potential 2012 Presidential Candidate Newt Gingrich, I thought I would focus on women in combat.

    Women Warriors – A History of Real Women in Combat « Indiana Jen

    The Soviet Union deployed women snipers extensively, and to great effect, including Nina Alexeyevna Lobkovskaya and Ukrainian Lyudmila Pavlichenko (who killed over 300 German soldiers). The Soviets found that sniper duties fit women well, since good snipers are patient, deliberate, have a high level of aerobic conditioning, and normally avoid hand-to-hand combat.

    Women served as machine gunners, tank drivers, medics, communication personnel and political officers. Manshuk Mametova was a machine gunner from Kazakhstan and was the first Soviet Asian woman to receive the Hero of the Soviet Union for acts of bravery.

    Women crewed the majority of the anti-aircraft batteries employed in Stalingrad. Some batteries, including the 1077th Anti-Aircraft Regiment, also engaged in ground combat.

    Soviet women in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yes those are well known facts. That was also desperation and a complete militarizing to confront the Nazi threat. In the end they also removed women from ground combat rolls, why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The evidence – from large-scale organized female participation through various types of gender integration through the participation of individual women – shows that when women have found their way into combat, they have generally performed about as well as most men have.

    http://www.warandgender.com/chap2pap.htm
    This is just an historical view of women in combat, so what? I mean the site is biased and nothing more than opinion, as far as commentary goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You think it is far fetched because you don't challenge the assumption.
    No. I think it's far fetched because it IS far fetched. It's about as reasonable as me saying...

    Well what if all the water on the planet dried up? In response to someone wanting a drink of water. That is how silly your premise is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I come with no fixed philosophy. I don't even have an opinion on whether women are or are not strong enough. This depends on what we mean by enough. I have only asked if the standard is as correct as we think it is.
    The evidence shows it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    So, you are still not addressing me.
    Because the premise is stupid and fly's in the face of reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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