View Poll Results: Should women be allowed in combat roles in military?

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Thread: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

  1. #261
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    There is no reasonable argument for the universal exclusion of women in the military. Though, on average, men are stronger than women, the physical difference in strength between the sexes is not of considerable concern in most posts in modern-day warfare. More important attributes are average intelligence, mental and physical agility, and dexterous skillfulness, which are required for the proficient use of contemporary weaponry in present-day combat and supporting roles.

    In situations where hand-to-hand combat is a likely possibility, considerations of exclusion are pragmatic; however, they should not be universally decided. Since direct physical altercations are exceptionally rare in the Navy and Air Force, exclusion of qualified women is discriminatory. Similarly, not all positions in the Army are likely to experience hand-to-hand fighting and should universally allow for women participants.

    When arguments against female inclusion only focus on unit cohesion and male perceptions of females’ ability and how men behave as a result of women’s presence, the claims are founded in male prejudices.

    (Claims of women as distractions is as ridiculous as arguments for the separation of the sexes in education and the non-military workplace).

    Ability should be grounded in tested strengths and weaknesses as opposed to presumed ones; female involvement should be on a case-by-case basis as it is with men. And if male service people have trouble working with women, they should be educated on how to work alongside humans.

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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    There is no reasonable argument for the universal exclusion of women in the military. Though, on average, men are stronger than women, the physical difference in strength between the sexes is not of considerable concern in most posts in modern-day warfare. More important attributes are average intelligence, mental and physical agility, and dexterous skillfulness, which are required for the proficient use of contemporary weaponry in present-day combat and supporting roles.

    In situations where hand-to-hand combat is a likely possibility, considerations of exclusion are pragmatic; however, they should not be universally decided. Since direct physical altercations are exceptionally rare in the Navy and Air Force, exclusion of qualified women is discriminatory. Similarly, not all positions in the Army are likely to experience hand-to-hand fighting and should universally allow for women participants.

    When arguments against female inclusion only focus on unit cohesion and male perceptions of females’ ability and how men behave as a result of women’s presence, the claims are founded in male prejudices.

    (Claims of women as distractions is as ridiculous as arguments for the separation of the sexes in education and the non-military workplace).

    Ability should be grounded in tested strengths and weaknesses as opposed to presumed ones; female involvement should be on a case-by-case basis as it is with men. And if male service people have trouble working with women, they should be educated on how to work alongside humans.
    Ummmmm???? No one is advocating or saying women should be excluded from service in the military. What we are debating is women excluded from a ground combat roll, period.

    Wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #263
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Still waiting for someone to address the evidence.

    BRITISH STUDY FINDS FEMALE SOLDIERS “TOO WEAK” FOR LAND COMBAT
    1/14/2002 12:58:35 PM

    ...Negative findings in the Combat Effectiveness Gender Study are even more significant in view of the fact that test exercises reportedly had been so diluted and watered down that they amounted to little more than "aggressive camping." (Electronic Telegraph, Mar. 26, 2001) According to Brig. Seymour Monro, the Army’s Director of Infantry, tasks that women soldiers were not physically capable of performing had been made easier or dropped from the trials...
    - Center for Military Readiness | International Policies

    It was reviewed and tried again in 2010...

    BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES
    Tuesday, November 30, 2010

    ...The Ministry of Defence has completed a review into the policy that excludes female members of the Armed Forces from carrying out ground close combat roles, and decided that it should remain unchanged...
    - CENTEX UNFILTERED NEWS: BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES

    Few serious armies use women in combat roles. Israel, which drafts most of its young women and uses them in all kinds of military work, has learned from experience to take them out of combat zones. Tests show that few women have the upper-body strength required for combat tasks. Keeping combat forces all male would not be discriminatory, as were earlier racial segregation schemes in the military, because men and women are different both physically and psychologically,” - Feb. 5, 1990, National Review.

    Israeli women won’t see combat
    October 20, 2003

    "JERUSALEM -- Young women who are drafted into the Israeli military will be barred from most combat duties because of a medical study that has determined they are, after all, the weaker sex..."
    - Israeli women won't see combat - Washington Times
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Ummmmm???? No one is advocating or saying women should be excluded from service in the military. What we are debating is women excluded from a ground combat roll, period.

    Wow.
    My post was in direct response to the opening of the thread. The term 'combat role' can be operating a tank. It is unambiguous and may include a wide variety of roles. My post is to support women inclusion in the military in general and in various combat roles. If they can perform the mental and physical duties expected of them, they should be permitted to fulfill any position.

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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Women already do serve in combat arms. They are MPs and gunship drivers. Several have fallen fighting for this country. You can make all manner of generalities about women, their strength and abilities but bottomline is quite a few women can do everything the average grunt can.

    The question isn't can EVERY woman hack it, the question is can those women who can be allowed.

    The question isn't who would push a woman infront of them in a fight, but who would stand in the way of a woman determined to fight.

    Having been a grunt I see it not as how much upper body strength a soldier has, but the ability to FIDO in the face of the enemy while being 'lead' from the rear by some of the biggest idiots Gawd ever blessed a military with.

    Don't need a penis to do that.

  6. #266
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    My post was in direct response to the opening of the thread. The term 'combat role' can be operating a tank. It is unambiguous and may include a wide variety of roles. My post is to support women inclusion in the military in general and in various combat roles. If they can perform the mental and physical duties expected of them, they should be permitted to fulfill any position.
    No they can't. Are you going to address the evidence I have posted saying that they are not capable of ground combat rolls on any kind of reasonable scale. Or are you just going to voice opinion with no evidence to back it up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #267
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Women already do serve in combat arms. They are MPs and gunship drivers. Several have fallen fighting for this country. You can make all manner of generalities about women, their strength and abilities but bottomline is quite a few women can do everything the average grunt can.

    The question isn't can EVERY woman hack it, the question is can those women who can be allowed.

    The question isn't who would push a woman infront of them in a fight, but who would stand in the way of a woman determined to fight.

    Having been a grunt I see it not as how much upper body strength a soldier has, but the ability to FIDO in the face of the enemy while being 'lead' from the rear by some of the biggest idiots Gawd ever blessed a military with.

    Don't need a penis to do that.
    I was in the Army for 12 years as well, and completely disagree. Of course the only real difference is I have posted evidence to back up my opinion.

    PS the problem is so few can, it is not worth it. Again all the evidence points to this conclusion.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-20-12 at 05:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #268
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Still waiting for someone to address the evidence.

    BRITISH STUDY FINDS FEMALE SOLDIERS “TOO WEAK” FOR LAND COMBAT
    1/14/2002 12:58:35 PM

    ...Negative findings in the Combat Effectiveness Gender Study are even more significant in view of the fact that test exercises reportedly had been so diluted and watered down that they amounted to little more than "aggressive camping." (Electronic Telegraph, Mar. 26, 2001) According to Brig. Seymour Monro, the Army’s Director of Infantry, tasks that women soldiers were not physically capable of performing had been made easier or dropped from the trials...
    - Center for Military Readiness | International Policies

    It was reviewed and tried again in 2010...

    BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES
    Tuesday, November 30, 2010

    ...The Ministry of Defence has completed a review into the policy that excludes female members of the Armed Forces from carrying out ground close combat roles, and decided that it should remain unchanged...
    - CENTEX UNFILTERED NEWS: BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES

    Few serious armies use women in combat roles. Israel, which drafts most of its young women and uses them in all kinds of military work, has learned from experience to take them out of combat zones. Tests show that few women have the upper-body strength required for combat tasks. Keeping combat forces all male would not be discriminatory, as were earlier racial segregation schemes in the military, because men and women are different both physically and psychologically,” - Feb. 5, 1990, National Review.

    Israeli women won’t see combat
    October 20, 2003

    "JERUSALEM -- Young women who are drafted into the Israeli military will be barred from most combat duties because of a medical study that has determined they are, after all, the weaker sex..."
    - Israeli women won't see combat - Washington Times
    That's based on the assumption that strength is what is required. Group think, not challenging the assumption.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #269
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Well if you consider looking at the evidence and personal military experience "group think" instead of intelligence, so be it.



    I did address it...

    "Until science advances to the point were ground units no longer need physical endurance and strength as the evidence shows, their is little to debate. - Blackdog

    And yes you did ignore the evidence with no input what so ever about what this mystical magical way of doing something is. In fact you have offered nothing.





    On the contrary I have offered plenty of real world evidence that says your way does not exist yet.
    What this shows it that you misunderstand the argument being made. I'm not arguing that women are stronger than males. I'm arguing that the assumption MAY be wrong.

    So, no, you have not offered any evidence based on what I'm arguing.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #270
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    Re: Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's based on the assumption that strength is what is required.
    It is not an assumption, it is a well known fact. I don't think you bothered to read any of the studys. If you had you would know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Group think, not challenging the assumption.
    Fact is not in any way "group think." Fact is you have no argument and no evidence to back up your position at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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