View Poll Results: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

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  • Yes

    13 43.33%
  • No

    14 46.67%
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Thread: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

  1. #11
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    Mac and Cephus take the literal definition of murder to the extreme, arguing that dictators do not murder unless (as mac pointed out) convicted in an international court of justice.

    What is your take? Should we be blinded by literalism and refrain from calling these men murderers, or is it necessary to denounce them as murderers for unjustly taking the lives of their own citizens?
    Technically, they aren't murderers because murder is the illegal killing and dictators are, essentially, the law.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    I just reread the definition. When used as a verb, it can be literally applied to dictators:

    verb
    4.
    Law . to kill by an act constituting murder.
    5.
    to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
    6.
    to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.

    I don't see why people are so hung up on the literal meaning of text. We don't take religious text literally, and how often are words used as descriptors when they don't literally apply?

    For instance, would it be so inappropriate to call genocidal dictators monsters despite the fact the literal definition does not apply?
    Last edited by Mensch; 03-17-12 at 09:22 PM.

  3. #13
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Now wait a second here.

    If (and I'm saying IF) the term "murder" does not really apply, then why do you feel we ought to use it anyway?
    I don't demand that you use it. But in my previous debates with others, I used the term and was challenged for using it. Though I don't particularly care what term is used (so long as it is appropriate according to reason and decency), I do have a problem when I have to defend the use of the term in my own right.

    Why do you need to use language improperly in an emotional way to make your point? Why can't your point stand on its own?
    It's not exactly "improper." Words do not have be used literally for every circumstance. As I just previously posted, murder can be applied in this context when it is used as a verb. Also, many people call them monsters when the term is not literally correct. I wouldn't say that is an improper use of the word monster, just not a literal one.

    What exactly is wrong with calling it "killing" if "murder" doesn't really apply? What sane person would say "Oh, it's just killing, no big?"
    Because "killing," in my humble opinion, is not a sufficient descriptor. People often kill to eat or in self-defense. Just leaving it at "killing" doesn't properly describe the brutality of the act.

    You do realize you are advocating for the misuse of language in order to hopefully manipulate emotional response, right?
    I don't believe it is a misuse of language simply because you take every textual word literally. Manipulate emotional response? How is that, given that the historical act of genocide alone is enough to stir an emotional response?

    I am not saying it is or isn't murder. I'm just pointing out the serious flaw in your line of reasoning here.
    What flaw? That I don't adhere to a literal application of words in all instances, at all times?

  4. #14
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Yes killing people that are protesting because they disagree with your views is murder. And i dont give a **** if they are convicted in court or not i call it as i see it.


  5. #15
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Dictators aren't above international law .
    Don't you have to sign a treaty for international law to apply? Why would a dictator sign something that doesn't benefit him?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  6. #16
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Don't you have to sign a treaty for international law to apply? Why would a dictator sign something that doesn't benefit him?
    An excellent point. Several countries never signed nor ratified these international treaties, let alone subjugate their criminal justice system under the ICC. As well, it doesn't make sense that those who signed the treaties would hold reservations in order to create their own loopholes.

  7. #17
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    when I cut into my juicy steak tonight did I aid in the killing of the cow, yes....

  8. #18
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Bleh international law shouldn't even come into this.
    International law, is hardly enforced making it, largely, null.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  9. #19
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    Mac and Cephus take the literal definition of murder to the extreme, arguing that dictators do not murder unless (as mac pointed out) convicted in an international court of justice.

    What is your take? Should we be blinded by literalism and refrain from calling these men murderers, or is it necessary to denounce them as murderers for unjustly taking the lives of their own citizens?
    if it breaks the laws of his country then yes.
    Murder is a legal term so you can only be a murderer in the legal sense.

    You can call him a lunatic killer though
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  10. #20
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    Re: Do dictators commit murder against their own citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    when I cut into my juicy steak tonight did I aid in the killing of the cow, yes....
    Of course, which is why the term "killing" is insufficient when describing the brutal acts of dictators.

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