View Poll Results: Is a State Animal Abuse Registry a good idea?

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  • YES- this is a good idea

    27 36.00%
  • NO - this is not necessary

    39 52.00%
  • I like to abuse animals and do not want to be stopped

    3 4.00%
  • I am an animal

    6 8.00%
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Thread: Animal Abuse Registry

  1. #381
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No it was not an attempt to derail the thread. It was an example that preventing people from buying something because of a prohibition doesn't even slightly stop people from buying it or getting ahold of it. It was to show you that people still find a way. And that is what this registry is right? A prohibition for all stores to sell animals to someone convicted of animal abuse?
    People find a way when the system we adopt allows them a way. That is obvious and simple and your so called "war on drugs" is an excellent example.

    Under the registry idea, a person convicted of animal abuse would not be allowed to obtain an animal from the sellers listed previously.

    btw - this is from the ASPCA site

    The majority of pets are obtained from acquaintances and family members. Twenty-six percent of dogs are purchased from breeders, 20 to 30 percent of cats and dogs are adopted from shelters and rescues, and 2 to 10 percent are purchased from pet shops.
    Those numbers do not quite add up. The term MAJORITY means half plus one. But then they say that 26% of dogs are purchased from breeders, another 20 to 30% adopted from shelters and 2 to 10% from pet stores. That could add up to well over a MAJORITY. Lets call it down the middle and say its 50/50.
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-25-12 at 05:16 PM.
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  2. #382
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    People find a way when the system we adopt allows them a way. That is obvious and simple and your so called "war on drugs" is an excellent example.

    Under the registry idea, a person convicted of animal abuse would not be allowed to obtain an animal from the sellers listed previously.
    And this system allows them a way.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  3. #383
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And this system allows them a way.
    Would you prefer even private neighborhood sales forced to use the registry? In fact, there is nothing which stops backyard sales from checking the registry to see if a purchaser is on it. In fact, that is what we hope will happen. What we will then need to do is work out the protocols with the State Police for enforcement and what to do when a person on the list tries to obtain an animal and triggers a red flag. We will be meeting with the State Police in the coming weeks.
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  4. #384
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Would you prefer even private neighborhood sales forced to use the registry? In fact, there is nothing which stops backyard sales from checking the registry to see if a purchaser is on it. In fact, that is what we hope will happen. What we will then need to do is work out the protocols with the State Police for enforcement and what to do when a person on the list tries to obtain an animal and triggers a red flag. We will be meeting with the State Police in the coming weeks.
    Even if you could force private sellers to use the registry (which you can't) it would not stop them.

    I do understand what you are trying to accomplish. And it may even work for awhile. But once word gets around about how this registry works then those people will just go another route.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  5. #385
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Haymarket, I'd really like you to respond and answer the questions in the following quote....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No I have not and I would challenge you to show otherwise. All that I have demanded is that something else be tried. Find something to actually fix the problem instead of just treating the problem. Is that really too much to ask for? Is it really asking for "perfection" to actually want a solution instead of just duck tape? Tell me, has your state even tried counsuling for these animal abusers? Psych evals? Anything beyond punishment?
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  6. #386
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Haymarket, I'd really like you to respond and answer the questions in the following quote....
    I do not know what sort of counseling is available for abusers although I do know its very expensive. I would be happy to see any programs you would like me to read about. Maybe if there is some effective therapy programs, we can include that in the bill?

    Politics is the art of the possible and that includes government. We do what we can for who we can as we can.
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  7. #387
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I would appreciate it if you could point out where I said anything about animals not thinking? Most animals operate on instinct but the higher forms do indeed think. Not on any kind of human level though.
    I believe some do think critically and are not driven based on instinct only, we are in agreement here, I never said they have the same cognitive capacity as humans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Well a dog can tell when you are scared etc. Has nothing to do with feelings. Please point out where I said animals don't feel? I said like humans. You need to stop generalizing.
    I think they do feel like humans, emotions are chemical reactions to stimuli. A dog expresses happiness by barking in a particular manner or growling or shying away they mope after they have been scolded and have a whole range of expressiveness that comes from emotion. What about animals who lose a mate? They don't feel lonely or sad?


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Language is not a simple set of sounds or gestures, that is communication, not language. Language is a more advanced and human form of human communication. Has nothing to do with me being comfortable and more to do with scientific fact.
    There is a defined "Dolphin Language", what about mating calls -- is that not a form of language? How can animal understand each other without being to communicate through a system of noises and body language? What gorillas who have learned sign language?


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I never said anything about you think they are human. I said you are trying (and you still are) to apply human attributes and making emotional appeals that fly in the face of logic.
    I think these attributes are animal, which includes humans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post

    Irrelevant. It does not in any way make animals human.
    My example with Genie and other people that have come from feral backgrounds is socialization. Without socialization humans revert to or simply do not develop to the extent that other humans do, as in human language, commonly used body language, what we consider irrational forms thought.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Why? You have no real argument. Science says you are just making stuff up based on your perceptions and ignoring fact as presented by years of research.
    I suggested starting another thread because my ideas included how socialization affects people, how being deprived of certain things affect people, maybe how having pets help lower your blood pressure -- any number of things that are OT for this thread. I was suggesting that there is more we could discuss. hence my comment that "i just thought that there are many places we can take this thread".

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So it would be pointless.
    Yes, further discussing years of research that show animals develop modes of communication that are their own language -- or if you prefer system of symbols -- or that animals feel like we feel -- or even to discuss human socialization and how people can overcome a lack of or falter because of it. I though we were trying to engage in interesting, informed critical analysis of topics. Granted neither of us presented research here, maybe we would when discussing other related topics that have nothing to do with the registry instead of staying in this thread about the registry.

    Regarding the video: I did not mean to hang the whole argument for the registry on it. I thought it was a nice story. I should have posted it elsewhere since you seem to think I base all my arguments on emotion.

    I even tried to insert some humor to indicate I was enjoying the discussion, apparently you didn't get it.

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  8. #388
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do not know what sort of counseling is available for abusers although I do know its very expensive. I would be happy to see any programs you would like me to read about. Maybe if there is some effective therapy programs, we can include that in the bill?

    Politics is the art of the possible and that includes government. We do what we can for who we can as we can.
    Wait, you don't know what counseling is available but you know its expensive? How do you know its expensive if you don't know what counseling is available? And what do you think would be more expensive in the long run? Helping people to no longer be animal abusers or creating a hostile environment for them so that they never learn and just continue on their destructive path? Perhaps even progressing that destructive path to include human lives?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #389
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I believe some do think critically and are not driven based on instinct only, we are in agreement here, I never said they have the same cognitive capacity as humans.


    I think they do feel like humans, emotions are chemical reactions to stimuli. A dog expresses happiness by barking in a particular manner or growling or shying away they mope after they have been scolded and have a whole range of expressiveness that comes from emotion. What about animals who lose a mate? They don't feel lonely or sad?



    There is a defined "Dolphin Language", what about mating calls -- is that not a form of language? How can animal understand each other without being to communicate through a system of noises and body language? What gorillas who have learned sign language?


    I think these attributes are animal, which includes humans.


    My example with Genie and other people that have come from feral backgrounds is socialization. Without socialization humans revert to or simply do not develop to the extent that other humans do, as in human language, commonly used body language, what we consider irrational forms thought.



    I suggested starting another thread because my ideas included how socialization affects people, how being deprived of certain things affect people, maybe how having pets help lower your blood pressure -- any number of things that are OT for this thread. I was suggesting that there is more we could discuss. hence my comment that "i just thought that there are many places we can take this thread".

    Yes, further discussing years of research that show animals develop modes of communication that are their own language -- or if you prefer system of symbols -- or that animals feel like we feel -- or even to discuss human socialization and how people can overcome a lack of or falter because of it. I though we were trying to engage in interesting, informed critical analysis of topics. Granted neither of us presented research here, maybe we would when discussing other related topics that have nothing to do with the registry instead of staying in this thread about the registry.

    Regarding the video: I did not mean to hang the whole argument for the registry on it. I thought it was a nice story. I should have posted it elsewhere since you seem to think I base all my arguments on emotion.

    I even tried to insert some humor to indicate I was enjoying the discussion, apparently you didn't get it.
    If you would actually respond to my questions I mite have been interested. If you did not constantly confuse what I typed with what you want to see, I mite have been interested. To be honest I have lost all interest.

    Thanks anyway and have a good night.
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  10. #390
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wait, you don't know what counseling is available but you know its expensive? How do you know its expensive if you don't know what counseling is available? And what do you think would be more expensive in the long run? Helping people to no longer be animal abusers or creating a hostile environment for them so that they never learn and just continue on their destructive path? Perhaps even progressing that destructive path to include human lives?
    I was speaking both specifically - in that I do not know the details of counseling programs - but generally the excuse is always that they are expensive.

    I agree with you that the solution in the long run is helping to cure those who can be cured. I simply do NOT see the public support for it right now. So we do what we can for those we can with the tools we can afford at this point in time.

    An enlightened tomorrow would be welcomed.
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