View Poll Results: Is a State Animal Abuse Registry a good idea?

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  • YES- this is a good idea

    27 36.00%
  • NO - this is not necessary

    39 52.00%
  • I like to abuse animals and do not want to be stopped

    3 4.00%
  • I am an animal

    6 8.00%
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Thread: Animal Abuse Registry

  1. #371
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes - you have demanded perfection from the start. Your claim is set upon the assumption that some people will fall through the cracks and be able to obtain an animal through sources outside breeders, shelters, pounds, humane societies and pet stores. And because of this you then assume that no good will be done with this law. At the core of your case is a continued onslaught built around the tactic that if it does not prevent even a single abuser from obtaining an animal to abuse - then it is a failure. Yes - you make the perfect the enemy of the good.
    No I have not and I would challenge you to show otherwise. All that I have demanded is that something else be tried. Find something to actually fix the problem instead of just treating the problem. Is that really too much to ask for? Is it really asking for "perfection" to actually want a solution instead of just duck tape? Tell me, has your state even tried counsuling for these animal abusers? Psych evals? Anything beyond punishment?

    The reason that it ultimately will not stop pet abusers has already been told to you. Those that want to abuse animals will just get them some other way. You actually don't have to believe me on this. Just look at the prohibition of drugs. Has the prohibition on drugs stopped people from getting em? The answer of course is a sound and resounding NO! Prohibiting people from buying animals because they were convicted of abusing an animal will not stop that person from getting an animal. If they can't get em through those stores then they will get them in other ways.

    Another problem with your registry is that animal abusers can also abuse other peoples animals, or just strays in general. After all, you don't need to take an animal home in order to abuse it. Heck, Michigan has beaches...how many seagulls you got flying around there? Know what alka seltzer does to a seagull that swallows it? Get my over all drift with this paragraph?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You fail to realize that
    1 - many will be prevented by going through these normal channels
    2- even normal citizens not in the business will be able to check the registry to see if a person wanting to adopt or buy their pet is on the list and thus some of those will also be prevented.
    No, they won't be prevented. As has been told to you many times now...they will just alter their behavior a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The bill is being worked on as I have told you. Our work group spent many hours on it this week. We then turned it over to the legal office - LSB - for final revisions - and we hope to have it this week. When we have it, it will be formally introduced as a substitute for the old bill. It will then be placed up on the State website and I will provide a link to it.

    In the meantime, I will try to look for the stats on how animals are obtained.
    Ok.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 03-25-12 at 10:35 AM.
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  2. #372
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually you do. And it is YOU who are making a claim that certain bad things will happen. You should ask the criminal psychologist and report back your findings.

    But again - you continue to make the perfect the enemy of the good.
    Three words for ya...

    War on Drugs.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  3. #373
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Such a "normal background check" mechanism does not now exist.

    If I am a breeder or a pet shop and a convicted abuser comes in to obtain an animal, there is not a mechanism available for me to do any check upon them. This registry will provide that.
    Yes there is. It is available to anyone and everyone that has a computer and the internet. I could get one right now on anyone with their permission and a little bit of info on em and 5 mins.

    Backgroundchecks.com
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  4. #374
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Yes, and women and children and slaves were once property as well.
    Women and children are humans, they ultimately have the same set of human rights as all humans. Cats are not human, they do not possess rights. For all legal purposes; you OWN your cat.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #375
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefgator View Post
    Absolutely. Writing in a sunset provision would make the whole thing easier to swallow.
    Thanks for that advice. I will bring it up again when we meet on this on Tuesday.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  6. #376
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Yes there is. It is available to anyone and everyone that has a computer and the internet. I could get one right now on anyone with their permission and a little bit of info on em and 5 mins.

    Backgroundchecks.com
    One problem which would prevent what you are advocating is that we have discovered that there is currently NO mandate to report cases of animal abuse to the State beyond the county level. Michigan has 83 counties of ten million people. In some, animal crimes have a very low priority and are not done anything with beyond individual prosecutions when they arise. As such, there is NO central database to do the type of check you want to do.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #377
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Three words for ya...

    War on Drugs.
    I do not want to derail this thread and I hope neither do you. My one standard comment when anyone mentions this is "huh? Aside from a really bad PR name - what war on drugs?" But that is a topic for another thread.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #378
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    One problem which would prevent what you are advocating is that we have discovered that there is currently NO mandate to report cases of animal abuse to the State beyond the county level. Michigan has 83 counties of ten million people. In some, animal crimes have a very low priority and are not done anything with beyond individual prosecutions when they arise. As such, there is NO central database to do the type of check you want to do.
    Wait...are you really saying that criminal convictions of animal abuse are not put into the court system database? Aren't ALL criminal convictions suppose to be logged somewhere on a state level? If they are not then you guys have more of a problem than this registry...

    Or are you just saying that animal abuses cases are not reported? Is that what you want this registry for? To put ALL cases of animal abuse on it regardless of any court convictions?

    Sorry but I am confused now.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #379
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do not want to derail this thread and I hope neither do you. My one standard comment when anyone mentions this is "huh? Aside from a really bad PR name - what war on drugs?" But that is a topic for another thread.
    No it was not an attempt to derail the thread. It was an example that preventing people from buying something because of a prohibition doesn't even slightly stop people from buying it or getting ahold of it. It was to show you that people still find a way. And that is what this registry is right? A prohibition for all stores to sell animals to someone convicted of animal abuse?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  10. #380
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wait...are you really saying that criminal convictions of animal abuse are not put into the court system database? Aren't ALL criminal convictions suppose to be logged somewhere on a state level? If they are not then you guys have more of a problem than this registry...

    Or are you just saying that animal abuses cases are not reported? Is that what you want this registry for? To put ALL cases of animal abuse on it regardless of any court convictions?

    Sorry but I am confused now.
    There are 83 counties in Michigan containing ten million people. Counties are responsible for their own criminal statistics. In certain categories - they have to report them to the state. This is NOT one of those categories.

    The panel I am working with has two second year law students from Cooley Law School helping us as advocates for the animals. As part of an earlier project, they attempted to build their own database by calling each of the 83 counties and found out that some counties do not even keep statistics on animal crimes since many categories are misdemeanors and are let off with fines.

    When I first started working on this I phoned the Michigan Human Society and asked the simple question about how many crimes there were each year against animals. The answer was "nobody knows". And they explained to me the reality of it all.

    For better or worse, crimes against animals simply have NOT been any sort of priority, either in enforcement, prosecution or even in data gathering in Michigan.

    Only people CONVICTED of a crime would be placed on the registry.

    What that means is this: right now today - there is NO data base that exists in Michigan of all the people convicted of crimes against animals.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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