View Poll Results: Is a State Animal Abuse Registry a good idea?

Voters
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  • YES- this is a good idea

    27 36.00%
  • NO - this is not necessary

    39 52.00%
  • I like to abuse animals and do not want to be stopped

    3 4.00%
  • I am an animal

    6 8.00%
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Thread: Animal Abuse Registry

  1. #361
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    We can get as near to perfection as is possible even if we can't actually achieve it.



    Hyperbolic? That's rich considering you keep bringing up the whole "perfection" thing when I have not once demanded it.

    First I would love to see statistics showing that people mainly obtain pets via those methods. The majority of pet procurements are actually done via private sales around where I live. In fact there is 1 animal store 35 miles from where I live and 3 animal shelters in the whole of 2 counties. Yet you go to the local newspaper and you will see at least half a dozen people offering up free animals and another half a dozen offering to sell you an animal.

    BTW...got a revised bill for us yet? One that addresses our concerns?
    Yes - you have demanded perfection from the start. Your claim is set upon the assumption that some people will fall through the cracks and be able to obtain an animal through sources outside breeders, shelters, pounds, humane societies and pet stores. And because of this you then assume that no good will be done with this law. At the core of your case is a continued onslaught built around the tactic that if it does not prevent even a single abuser from obtaining an animal to abuse - then it is a failure. Yes - you make the perfect the enemy of the good.

    You fail to realize that
    1 - many will be prevented by going through these normal channels
    2- even normal citizens not in the business will be able to check the registry to see if a person wanting to adopt or buy their pet is on the list and thus some of those will also be prevented.

    The bill is being worked on as I have told you. Our work group spent many hours on it this week. We then turned it over to the legal office - LSB - for final revisions - and we hope to have it this week. When we have it, it will be formally introduced as a substitute for the old bill. It will then be placed up on the State website and I will provide a link to it.

    In the meantime, I will try to look for the stats on how animals are obtained.
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  2. #362
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Don't need clairvoyance to know this. Simple knowledge of they way humans are will tell you it. Ask any criminal psychologist.
    Actually you do. And it is YOU who are making a claim that certain bad things will happen. You should ask the criminal psychologist and report back your findings.

    But again - you continue to make the perfect the enemy of the good.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #363
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I understand this. But the same can be done via a normal background check. Which also takes just a few minuets. As such a public registry is useless.
    Such a "normal background check" mechanism does not now exist.

    If I am a breeder or a pet shop and a convicted abuser comes in to obtain an animal, there is not a mechanism available for me to do any check upon them. This registry will provide that.
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  4. #364
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Agreed since it is a public record anyway. Like I said it is nothing but feel better revenge legislation and nothing more.
    Revenge? How is this getting revenge on anyone?
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  5. #365
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your ability to predict the future is amazing in the extreme.

    But just so we know this ability is credible, could you provide the winning lottery numbers in next weeks Power Ball?
    You accuse Kal of hyperbole and then drop this out, again I call you the Pot and the Kettle.

    The reason I can predict the future in this case is because I have historical data to support the predictions.
    I own a cabin in Jackson county NC. It is a dry county. Guess what? Every one of my neighbors has a well stocked liquor cabinet. The county ordinance did nothing to stop drinking. It just changed the behavior a bit.
    In Alabama, adult sex toys are illegal to sell. Enter the Internet and mail order before that. Again, just alter the behavior a bit.

    I fully support your intent. My blood boils when I hear about animal cruelty. But... This legislation will not do anything to stop it.
    It will alter the behavior of an abuser slightly.

    Additionally, I suspect (no data here, just a suspicion on my part) that the majority of abuse cases are not "intentional" they are "neglectful". How many of the abusers go out to purchase a puppy to torture it? Sure you have Mike Vick and the Greyhound guy you mentioned before. But I would assume that majority go into pet ownership with the best of intentions and something alters their lifestyle and they begin to neglect their animals. Work, school, kids, money, whatever happened and they begin to ignore the animal. This is not an apologist stance on my part by any stretch. There is no excuse, if you cannot take care of the animal find someone who can. You accepted the responsibility of the animal, see it thru.
    The reason I bring this up is that I am wondering about repeat offenders. How many people neglect/abuse animals repeatedly? I would assume that the hard core abusive types would be more likely to be a multiple offender and the neglectful types to be less likely.
    Last edited by Chiefgator; 03-25-12 at 08:07 AM.
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  6. #366
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    I think the difference here is when you say a sweeping statement like

    This legislation will not do anything to stop it.
    I think it is reasonable to assume that it will have an impact and it will help to prevent some animal abuse. But there is but one way to find out.
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  7. #367
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I think the difference here is when you say a sweeping statement like



    I think it is reasonable to assume that it will have an impact and it will help to prevent some animal abuse. But there is but one way to find out.
    I agree it will have an impact. But the impact will be an alteration at best. And you are also correct that there is a way to find out... Watch the two counties that have the registry to see if it actually does anything.
    They are the litmus test. Do cases of abuse go down in those counties? Do the shelters find themselves turning away multiple abusers in a year?
    Observing and studying the results is the scientific method to approach any problem.
    I will admit that the county system may be too small to give an accurate sample size. Maybe your statewide proposal is large enough. If the animal abuse cases drop dramatically over the first year after the law is in place, I will gladly admit I was wrong and buy you a frosty beverage. I truly believe that will not be the case tho.
    As a dreamer of dreams and a travellin' man, I have chalked up many a mile.
    Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks and I've learned much from both of their styles!

  8. #368
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefgator View Post
    I agree it will have an impact. But the impact will be an alteration at best. And you are also correct that there is a way to find out... Watch the two counties that have the registry to see if it actually does anything.
    They are the litmus test. Do cases of abuse go down in those counties? Do the shelters find themselves turning away multiple abusers in a year?
    Observing and studying the results is the scientific method to approach any problem.
    I will admit that the county system may be too small to give an accurate sample size. Maybe your statewide proposal is large enough. If the animal abuse cases drop dramatically over the first year after the law is in place, I will gladly admit I was wrong and buy you a frosty beverage. I truly believe that will not be the case tho.
    The counties are limited at best. Michigan - being the first state - is a better test lab for results. Glad to see you on board with at least that concept.

    One thing we did kick around this past week was some sort of sunset provision so that results can be judged down the road in three to five years. Would you support that?
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The counties are limited at best. Michigan - being the first state - is a better test lab for results. Glad to see you on board with at least that concept.

    One thing we did kick around this past week was some sort of sunset provision so that results can be judged down the road in three to five years. Would you support that?
    Absolutely. Writing in a sunset provision would make the whole thing easier to swallow.
    As a dreamer of dreams and a travellin' man, I have chalked up many a mile.
    Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks and I've learned much from both of their styles!

  10. #370
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    If animals do not think how do they learn?
    I would appreciate it if you could point out where I said anything about animals not thinking? Most animals operate on instinct but the higher forms do indeed think. Not on any kind of human level though.

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    If they do not have feelings what makes them console an upset human?
    Well a dog can tell when you are scared etc. Has nothing to do with feelings. Please point out where I said animals don't feel? I said like humans. You need to stop generalizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Researchers and even your average joe have noted the vocal responses between animals. They do have a language, if you are more comfortable with it then how about a system of symbols, those symbols being noises.
    Language is not a simple set of sounds or gestures, that is communication, not language. Language is a more advanced and human form of communication. Has nothing to do with me being comfortable and more to do with scientific fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I never said it makes them human, they do have similarities and they have differences, as do all living creatures. I think you might better understand what I mean when thinking of feral children (I'm not talking about the Tarzan movies).
    I never said anything about you think they are human. I said you are trying (and you still are) to apply human attributes and making emotional appeals that fly in the face of logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    See how different Genie is from other humans and how having no socialization affected her We accept social norms being forced upon almost without question, but Genie and other like her (yes there have been more -- even in the "wild"). I am not saying Genie is an animal or reducing her competence to equal that of a dog. Much human behavior is learned, as it is in animals, socialization is learned, emotions exist, socialization puts a name to them.
    Irrelevant. It does not in any way make animals human.

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I just now thought that there are many places we can take this thread -- maybe we should start one on this instead of the registry --? just a thought.

    It is past my bedtime and I would like to go snuggle with my companions Dora and Butters (before you even say it as a joke -- yes I have a human companion as well).
    Why? You have no real argument. Science says you are just making stuff up based on your perceptions and ignoring fact as presented by years of research.

    So it would be pointless.
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