View Poll Results: Is a State Animal Abuse Registry a good idea?

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  • YES- this is a good idea

    27 36.00%
  • NO - this is not necessary

    39 52.00%
  • I like to abuse animals and do not want to be stopped

    3 4.00%
  • I am an animal

    6 8.00%
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Thread: Animal Abuse Registry

  1. #321
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    I agree. That is an abuse of the law - an illogical one. It's a means to control youth behaviour unfairly under the guise us pedophilia. Same-aged sexual exploration is clearly not pedophilia. pedophilia by definition requires old and young. This is abuse of an existing law to control youth unjustly. It is an abuse of power and resources.

    That being said, the pedophile registry, as it was intended, is a good law, for such a predilection as pedophilia is prone to repeat offenses if an initial offense is committed.

    But to be against a law b/c the law is abused is odd. Why not be against the abuse of the law?
    No its not really a good law. It opens up things like vigilantism, prejudice, bigotry.

    Our whole justice system is based on the idea that once a person serves their time and paid their dues then they are suppose to be free. How can they be free when they are not allowed the same rights as other people? The right to be safe and secure. The right to privacy. The right to not be harrassed.

    I fully believe that instead of further punishing these people, be they truely pedophiles, animal abusers, theifs or whatever then you need to treat the actual problem. Not make life harder on them after they have paid their dues while totally ignoring the problem.
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Well I love animals allot, I can't even kill a bug or fish anymore. I used to hunt, can't do that anymore either. I scuba with a camera because I believe in live and let live. I still like to eat though, lol. This law however well intended is not about justice, or so that is how it appears on the surface and from the words that Haymarket posted. I also can't see it making any real difference. I mean anyone can grab a stray etc if they really want to torture something. They can buy from a private owner etc. What I am worried about is the person charged with abuse who lost a job, ran out of money and had to decide to feed themselves or the dog etc. Now this person is convicted and will be punished above and beyond what the law has decided is reasonable. I cannot and will not support that. Humans and our rights to privacy and freedom from persecution from a mistake in some cases has to come first.

    If I thought this law would be even remotely useful, I mite give it a chance, but I don't see any good at all coming out of it. Much like the sex offenders data base. I see it as a waist of time. effort and money.



    Just tired of repeating myself over and over when no one is really listening. You on the other hand got my attention with this post. It was well thought out and reasonable even in response to my hyperbole. I figure you earned a dignified and respectful answer.



    No problem. I was going to put a simile face here, but that just seems so South Park gay, lol.

    You go back to very limited specifics. Should a starving person be criminalized for killing a stray cat/dog? That was clearly not what was originally discussed and argued against. You have changed the circumstances significantly. You have now shifted the discussion from animal cruelty to issues of poverty.

    As to the law making a societal difference, my previous posts have commented on the societal connection of mammalian abuse and human abuse. A connection exists.

    You have, not unlike another, focused on an abuse of the law, i.e., criminalizing the poor, to discredit a registry on animal cruelty. Why not focus on the abuse of the law rather than the law itself?
    Last edited by shelphs; 03-23-12 at 12:44 AM.

  3. #323
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    You go back to very limited specifics. Should a starving person be criminalized for killing a stray cat/dog? That was clearly not what was originally discussed and argued against. You have changed the circumstances significantly. You have now shifted the discussion from animal cruelty to issues of poverty.
    This is exactly what I mean. I am done. You can't even get past one ****ing example with closing your ****ing ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    As to the law making a societal different, my previous posts have commented on the societal connection of mammalian abuse and human abuse. A connection exists.

    You have, not unlike another, focused on an abuse of the law, i.e., criminalizing the poor, to discredit a registry on animal cruelty. Why not focus on the abuse of the law rather than the law itself?
    We are done. Have a good night. Enjoy the eroding of our rights, and the poll pretty much show how people with intelligence feel about it.
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This is exactly what I mean. I am done. You can't even get past one ****ing example with closing your ****ing ears.



    We are done. Have a good night. Enjoy the eroding of our rights, and the poll pretty much show how people with intelligence feel about it.

    Very right. The masses justify justice, which is to suggest that slavery, women's rights, and the like have never been a concern; that the rights of people haven't been unjustly suppressed by mass perception. Progress is the re-adjustment of mass perception.

    (If you want to continue this discussion, you know where I can be privately contacted. I did appreciate your opinion and civility. I still do appreciate your opinion, though, and want to better understand the foundation of you position. If you care to, contact me)

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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No its not really a good law. It opens up things like vigilantism, prejudice, bigotry.

    Our whole justice system is based on the idea that once a person serves their time and paid their dues then they are suppose to be free. How can they be free when they are not allowed the same rights as other people? The right to be safe and secure. The right to privacy. The right to not be harrassed.

    I fully believe that instead of further punishing these people, be they truly pedophiles, animal abusers, theifs or whatever then you need to treat the actual problem. Not make life harder on them after they have paid their dues while totally ignoring the problem.
    The system also proclaims that religion and government are separate, but that is clearly a fallacy (look on money, political candidacy and law based on Christian values, i.e., the Bible - gay marriage). Also, once a convicted criminal in Kentucky or Virginia, voting rights are forever suspended. What you describe does not exist.

    I don't agree with it, but the justice system is obviously not based on "once a person serves their time and paid their dues then they are suppose to be free" in the most free interpretation of it.

    Again, however, this is not an argument against your point so much as it is a look at the unrealistic nature of it on several levels. The country you describe doesn't exist for many reasons, for one example, law on a pedophile registry.

    Serial repeat offenders are a danger. Stereotypes that prohibit freedom should not be advanced, but stereotypes that predict repeat offense should be taken seriously. Rather than keeping such people locked up, societal measures, precautions are taken to allow for their freedom but also allow for the protection of those in the same community as those who serial offend others.

    I do not disagree with this sort of policy.

    However, which you are perhaps arguing, it would be better to fully address the addiction/attraction and the solution for pedophilia might be CGI pornography.

    I go back to repeat offenders, which serial killers are. If such a person is released, I don't think it unfair to have them registered. But it is difficult to imagine a serial killer being released in general.

    The discussion we are having would perhaps be more properly focuses on degree of badness, i.e., serial killing and pedophilia or sexual abuse. Both are not equally heinous in accordance with the law and they possibly should be.

    [how do you mean "treat the problem"]

  6. #326
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    The system also proclaims that religion and government are separate, but that is clearly a fallacy (look on money, political candidacy and law based on Christian values, i.e., the Bible - gay marriage). Also, once a convicted criminal in Kentucky or Virginia, voting rights are forever suspended. What you describe does not exist.
    Religion and government are seperate in the way that it is suppose to be. The seperation of church and state was so that the government could not make a law regarding religion. No where does it say that religion cannot be used for the basis of a law.

    And if that is true about Virginia then that is exactly the type of problem that I am percieving.

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    I don't agree with it, but the justice system is obviously not based on "once a person serves their time and paid their dues then they are suppose to be free" in the most free interpretation of it.
    Agreed, anymore that is not the way the system is. But that is the way that it is suppose to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    Serial repeat offenders are a danger. Stereotypes that prohibit freedom should not be advanced, but stereotypes that predict repeat offense should be taken seriously. Rather than keeping such people locked up, societal measures, precautions are taken to allow for their freedom but also allow for the protection of those in the same community as those who serial offend others.
    If a person is a risk of repeating a crime then don't you think that they should not be released from prison? Someone that wants to do the crime again is not going to care about some stupid registry. And even if people look someone up in a registry that is not going to stop the repeat offender from doing the crime again it only takes about an hour an a half to drive 50 miles from their neighborhood to an area where no one knows him/her.

    Quote Originally Posted by shelphs View Post
    [how do you mean "treat the problem"]
    Find a solution. Why do people that really do abuse animals abuse them? Is it a chemical imbalance? Is it upbringing? What? Find out the cause and address it. Continueal punishment is getting us no where fast.
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  7. #327
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No its not really a good law. It opens up things like vigilantism, prejudice, bigotry.

    Our whole justice system is based on the idea that once a person serves their time and paid their dues then they are suppose to be free. How can they be free when they are not allowed the same rights as other people? The right to be safe and secure. The right to privacy. The right to not be harrassed.

    I fully believe that instead of further punishing these people, be they truely pedophiles, animal abusers, theifs or whatever then you need to treat the actual problem. Not make life harder on them after they have paid their dues while totally ignoring the problem.
    You are confusing a historical model of prison time with a proper sentence for a crime. Today, we use a combination of possible jail or prison time, supervised parole, and registry for some offenses. That is considered a better alternative than simply locking a person up for what could be a long and expensive prison sentence. In our state, it can cost between $30 and $35 thousand dollars to house an inmate in prison. And we have over 40,000 inmates. Crimes against animals are given a lower priority than crimes against humans. Sentences for killing or torturing or maiming animals are significantly shorter than crimes against people. So we have to use a different approach with varied components to better serve the public and meet our obligation of fiscal responsibility.

    So to get locked into this idea that "I did my time" because you served a short jail sentence, is antiquated and no longer relevant. The dues to be paid today are not those of days gone by - nor should they be. As society and the nation changes, so must the methodology we use to fight crime. Change and adaption are among the essence of responding to the world around us. We no longer use the dunking chair or the stocks of the 17th century.

    I too favor treatment. And when we develop that treatment please let me know when that happens. And when we as a society are willing to fully fund that treatment let me know on that count also please.

    Criminals convicted in a court of law give up certain rights. That is simply the way the system works.
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  8. #328
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Absolutely a good idea. Regarding violence why do we treat innocent animals any different than innocent children? They have no way to protect themselves from humans who want to hurt them and no way to get help, they rely on humans to help them when in need.

    I have not read the whole thread, but I am surprised by the poll results. Is lighting a hamster on fire excusable? I usually do not agree wit these types of laws because it makes it more difficult for offenders to participate in society. The reality is that there are not many protections for animals and animal abuse is a precursor to abuse of humans, even to the level of murder.

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  9. #329
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Absolutely a good idea. Regarding violence why do we treat innocent animals any different than innocent children? They have no way to protect themselves from humans who want to hurt them and no way to get help, they rely on humans to help them when in need.

    I have not read the whole thread, but I am surprised by the poll results. Is lighting a hamster on fire excusable? I usually do not agree wit these types of laws because it makes it more difficult for offenders to participate in society. The reality is that there are not many protections for animals and animal abuse is a precursor to abuse of humans, even to the level of murder.
    All of those points have been addressed. Here is the Readers Digest condensed version:
    People had concerns about cat ladies and animal hoarders getting needlessly put on the list.
    Haymarket answered those concerns and stated the bill does not include such persons, saying they were Mental Disorders and not under the law. The counter was that ALL Animal abuse was mental disorders and the law would cover that eventually.

    People had concerned about the time on the list - that lifetime was too long.
    Haymarket answered that pointing out the five year limit. The counter to that was that a 5 year data base does very little in the way of tracking potential murderers. Additionally, any list on the internet is there for perpituity, somewhere...

    People were concerned about an average citizen being able to get your social security and other data.
    Haymarket answered that pointing out they could not. No real counter to that.

    People brought up the Craigs List/Private sales problem.
    Haymarket stated we were working on that problem right now. The counter is that there is no way that it will ever be effective in this area because you cannot limit the private sales without seriously infringing on people's rights.

    As to not being able to show the list will not be abused by PETA.......Haymarket also cannot disprove a claim that three inch monkeys made of blue flame play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus................. That one speaks for itself.

    The current discussion has turned to 4th and 8th Amendment rights.

    The Gorilla in the room however is it's effectiveness.
    There are two counties that have enacted a similar list. No data has been shown that there has been a single time where this list was accessed and a person was turned away from buying an animal. So, if it has never shown any effectiveness, why go through the cost and trouble to pass the law, put the extra burden on people that just want a puppy, on shelters that want to rescue a puppy, and pay to employ people to track said list if it has never shown any results.

    I will give Haymarket and the supporters of the bill this: The 2 counties have not reported any harrassment from PETA types after having found names that are on the list.
    KalStang , Haymarket et al: Did I miss anything?
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  10. #330
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    Re: Animal Abuse Registry

    Chiefgator

    on the mental disorder issue: the proposed law treats animal hoarders - the cat ladies - as a mental disorder. It does not treat all animal abuse as such. I imagine someone could make a case that ALL human violent behavior - is a form of mental disorder regardless if directed towards animals or humans. And there may be some support for that. Our intention is to try to help animals from those who INTEND to do them harm - regardless of their internal mental motivations. Intent in the law is very important.

    as to the five year time limit - I note that one of the NY counties has just changed theirs to ten years. Would you favor that extension?

    your summary of the two NY counties is dishonest. Both were just enacted and it is far too early to judge the effectiveness of either at this point.

    as to the "extra burden" this places on buyers and sellers - I simply do not think this is a big deal. With the proper technology and data base, it should take mere minutes . If you consider a few minutes out of your busy day a major inconvenience - that is your opinion. I consider it a very small price to pay in defense of animals who cannot protect themselves.

    As to abuse by PETA - when it happens please let me know. Until then, its just wild speculation based on a motivation to cause the bill to fail.
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