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Animal Abuse Registry

Is a State Animal Abuse Registry a good idea?

  • Total voters
    53
Kal'Stang said:
Yes there is. It is available to anyone and everyone that has a computer and the internet. I could get one right now on anyone with their permission and a little bit of info on em and 5 mins.

Backgroundchecks.com
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One problem which would prevent what you are advocating is that we have discovered that there is currently NO mandate to report cases of animal abuse to the State beyond the county level. Michigan has 83 counties of ten million people. In some, animal crimes have a very low priority and are not done anything with beyond individual prosecutions when they arise. As such, there is NO central database to do the type of check you want to do.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Three words for ya...

War on Drugs.
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I do not want to derail this thread and I hope neither do you. My one standard comment when anyone mentions this is "huh? Aside from a really bad PR name - what war on drugs?" But that is a topic for another thread.
 
haymarket said:
One problem which would prevent what you are advocating is that we have discovered that there is currently NO mandate to report cases of animal abuse to the State beyond the county level. Michigan has 83 counties of ten million people. In some, animal crimes have a very low priority and are not done anything with beyond individual prosecutions when they arise. As such, there is NO central database to do the type of check you want to do.
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Wait...are you really saying that criminal convictions of animal abuse are not put into the court system database? Aren't ALL criminal convictions suppose to be logged somewhere on a state level? If they are not then you guys have more of a problem than this registry...

Or are you just saying that animal abuses cases are not reported? Is that what you want this registry for? To put ALL cases of animal abuse on it regardless of any court convictions?

Sorry but I am confused now.
 
haymarket said:
I do not want to derail this thread and I hope neither do you. My one standard comment when anyone mentions this is "huh? Aside from a really bad PR name - what war on drugs?" But that is a topic for another thread.
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No it was not an attempt to derail the thread. It was an example that preventing people from buying something because of a prohibition doesn't even slightly stop people from buying it or getting ahold of it. It was to show you that people still find a way. And that is what this registry is right? A prohibition for all stores to sell animals to someone convicted of animal abuse?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Wait...are you really saying that criminal convictions of animal abuse are not put into the court system database? Aren't ALL criminal convictions suppose to be logged somewhere on a state level? If they are not then you guys have more of a problem than this registry...

Or are you just saying that animal abuses cases are not reported? Is that what you want this registry for? To put ALL cases of animal abuse on it regardless of any court convictions?

Sorry but I am confused now.
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There are 83 counties in Michigan containing ten million people. Counties are responsible for their own criminal statistics. In certain categories - they have to report them to the state. This is NOT one of those categories.

The panel I am working with has two second year law students from Cooley Law School helping us as advocates for the animals. As part of an earlier project, they attempted to build their own database by calling each of the 83 counties and found out that some counties do not even keep statistics on animal crimes since many categories are misdemeanors and are let off with fines.

When I first started working on this I phoned the Michigan Human Society and asked the simple question about how many crimes there were each year against animals. The answer was "nobody knows". And they explained to me the reality of it all.

For better or worse, crimes against animals simply have NOT been any sort of priority, either in enforcement, prosecution or even in data gathering in Michigan.

Only people CONVICTED of a crime would be placed on the registry.

What that means is this: right now today - there is NO data base that exists in Michigan of all the people convicted of crimes against animals.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No it was not an attempt to derail the thread. It was an example that preventing people from buying something because of a prohibition doesn't even slightly stop people from buying it or getting ahold of it. It was to show you that people still find a way. And that is what this registry is right? A prohibition for all stores to sell animals to someone convicted of animal abuse?
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People find a way when the system we adopt allows them a way. That is obvious and simple and your so called "war on drugs" is an excellent example.

Under the registry idea, a person convicted of animal abuse would not be allowed to obtain an animal from the sellers listed previously.

btw - this is from the ASPCA site

The majority of pets are obtained from acquaintances and family members. Twenty-six percent of dogs are purchased from breeders, 20 to 30 percent of cats and dogs are adopted from shelters and rescues, and 2 to 10 percent are purchased from pet shops.
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Those numbers do not quite add up. The term MAJORITY means half plus one. But then they say that 26% of dogs are purchased from breeders, another 20 to 30% adopted from shelters and 2 to 10% from pet stores. That could add up to well over a MAJORITY. Lets call it down the middle and say its 50/50.
 
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haymarket said:
People find a way when the system we adopt allows them a way. That is obvious and simple and your so called "war on drugs" is an excellent example.

Under the registry idea, a person convicted of animal abuse would not be allowed to obtain an animal from the sellers listed previously.
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And this system allows them a way.
 
Kal'Stang said:
And this system allows them a way.
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Would you prefer even private neighborhood sales forced to use the registry? In fact, there is nothing which stops backyard sales from checking the registry to see if a purchaser is on it. In fact, that is what we hope will happen. What we will then need to do is work out the protocols with the State Police for enforcement and what to do when a person on the list tries to obtain an animal and triggers a red flag. We will be meeting with the State Police in the coming weeks.
 
haymarket said:
Would you prefer even private neighborhood sales forced to use the registry? In fact, there is nothing which stops backyard sales from checking the registry to see if a purchaser is on it. In fact, that is what we hope will happen. What we will then need to do is work out the protocols with the State Police for enforcement and what to do when a person on the list tries to obtain an animal and triggers a red flag. We will be meeting with the State Police in the coming weeks.
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Even if you could force private sellers to use the registry (which you can't) it would not stop them.

I do understand what you are trying to accomplish. And it may even work for awhile. But once word gets around about how this registry works then those people will just go another route.
 
Haymarket, I'd really like you to respond and answer the questions in the following quote....

Kal'Stang said:
No I have not and I would challenge you to show otherwise. All that I have demanded is that something else be tried. Find something to actually fix the problem instead of just treating the problem. Is that really too much to ask for? Is it really asking for "perfection" to actually want a solution instead of just duck tape? Tell me, has your state even tried counsuling for these animal abusers? Psych evals? Anything beyond punishment?
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Kal'Stang said:
Haymarket, I'd really like you to respond and answer the questions in the following quote....
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I do not know what sort of counseling is available for abusers although I do know its very expensive. I would be happy to see any programs you would like me to read about. Maybe if there is some effective therapy programs, we can include that in the bill?

Politics is the art of the possible and that includes government. We do what we can for who we can as we can.
 
Blackdog said:
I would appreciate it if you could point out where I said anything about animals not thinking? Most animals operate on instinct but the higher forms do indeed think. Not on any kind of human level though.
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I believe some do think critically and are not driven based on instinct only, we are in agreement here, I never said they have the same cognitive capacity as humans.


Blackdog said:
Well a dog can tell when you are scared etc. Has nothing to do with feelings. Please point out where I said animals don't feel? I said like humans. You need to stop generalizing.
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I think they do feel like humans, emotions are chemical reactions to stimuli. A dog expresses happiness by barking in a particular manner or growling or shying away they mope after they have been scolded and have a whole range of expressiveness that comes from emotion. What about animals who lose a mate? They don't feel lonely or sad?


Blackdog said:
Language is not a simple set of sounds or gestures, that is communication, not language. Language is a more advanced and human form of human communication. Has nothing to do with me being comfortable and more to do with scientific fact.
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There is a defined "Dolphin Language", what about mating calls -- is that not a form of language? How can animal understand each other without being to communicate through a system of noises and body language? What gorillas who have learned sign language?


Blackdog said:
I never said anything about you think they are human. I said you are trying (and you still are) to apply human attributes and making emotional appeals that fly in the face of logic.
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I think these attributes are animal, which includes humans.


Blackdog said:
Irrelevant. It does not in any way make animals human.
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My example with Genie and other people that have come from feral backgrounds is socialization. Without socialization humans revert to or simply do not develop to the extent that other humans do, as in human language, commonly used body language, what we consider irrational forms thought.



Blackdog said:
Why? You have no real argument. Science says you are just making stuff up based on your perceptions and ignoring fact as presented by years of research.
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I suggested starting another thread because my ideas included how socialization affects people, how being deprived of certain things affect people, maybe how having pets help lower your blood pressure -- any number of things that are OT for this thread. I was suggesting that there is more we could discuss. hence my comment that "i just thought that there are many places we can take this thread".

Blackdog said:
So it would be pointless.
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Yes, further discussing years of research that show animals develop modes of communication that are their own language -- or if you prefer system of symbols -- or that animals feel like we feel -- or even to discuss human socialization and how people can overcome a lack of or falter because of it. I though we were trying to engage in interesting, informed critical analysis of topics. Granted neither of us presented research here, maybe we would when discussing other related topics that have nothing to do with the registry instead of staying in this thread about the registry.

Regarding the video: I did not mean to hang the whole argument for the registry on it. I thought it was a nice story. I should have posted it elsewhere since you seem to think I base all my arguments on emotion.

I even tried to insert some humor to indicate I was enjoying the discussion, apparently you didn't get it.
 
haymarket said:
I do not know what sort of counseling is available for abusers although I do know its very expensive. I would be happy to see any programs you would like me to read about. Maybe if there is some effective therapy programs, we can include that in the bill?

Politics is the art of the possible and that includes government. We do what we can for who we can as we can.
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Wait, you don't know what counseling is available but you know its expensive? How do you know its expensive if you don't know what counseling is available? And what do you think would be more expensive in the long run? Helping people to no longer be animal abusers or creating a hostile environment for them so that they never learn and just continue on their destructive path? Perhaps even progressing that destructive path to include human lives?
 
taxigirl said:
I believe some do think critically and are not driven based on instinct only, we are in agreement here, I never said they have the same cognitive capacity as humans.


I think they do feel like humans, emotions are chemical reactions to stimuli. A dog expresses happiness by barking in a particular manner or growling or shying away they mope after they have been scolded and have a whole range of expressiveness that comes from emotion. What about animals who lose a mate? They don't feel lonely or sad?



There is a defined "Dolphin Language", what about mating calls -- is that not a form of language? How can animal understand each other without being to communicate through a system of noises and body language? What gorillas who have learned sign language?


I think these attributes are animal, which includes humans.


My example with Genie and other people that have come from feral backgrounds is socialization. Without socialization humans revert to or simply do not develop to the extent that other humans do, as in human language, commonly used body language, what we consider irrational forms thought.



I suggested starting another thread because my ideas included how socialization affects people, how being deprived of certain things affect people, maybe how having pets help lower your blood pressure -- any number of things that are OT for this thread. I was suggesting that there is more we could discuss. hence my comment that "i just thought that there are many places we can take this thread".

Yes, further discussing years of research that show animals develop modes of communication that are their own language -- or if you prefer system of symbols -- or that animals feel like we feel -- or even to discuss human socialization and how people can overcome a lack of or falter because of it. I though we were trying to engage in interesting, informed critical analysis of topics. Granted neither of us presented research here, maybe we would when discussing other related topics that have nothing to do with the registry instead of staying in this thread about the registry.

Regarding the video: I did not mean to hang the whole argument for the registry on it. I thought it was a nice story. I should have posted it elsewhere since you seem to think I base all my arguments on emotion.

I even tried to insert some humor to indicate I was enjoying the discussion, apparently you didn't get it.
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If you would actually respond to my questions I mite have been interested. If you did not constantly confuse what I typed with what you want to see, I mite have been interested. To be honest I have lost all interest.

Thanks anyway and have a good night.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Wait, you don't know what counseling is available but you know its expensive? How do you know its expensive if you don't know what counseling is available? And what do you think would be more expensive in the long run? Helping people to no longer be animal abusers or creating a hostile environment for them so that they never learn and just continue on their destructive path? Perhaps even progressing that destructive path to include human lives?
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I was speaking both specifically - in that I do not know the details of counseling programs - but generally the excuse is always that they are expensive.

I agree with you that the solution in the long run is helping to cure those who can be cured. I simply do NOT see the public support for it right now. So we do what we can for those we can with the tools we can afford at this point in time.

An enlightened tomorrow would be welcomed.
 
haymarket said:
I was speaking both specifically - in that I do not know the details of counseling programs - but generally the excuse is always that they are expensive.

I agree with you that the solution in the long run is helping to cure those who can be cured. I simply do NOT see the public support for it right now. So we do what we can for those we can with the tools we can afford at this point in time.

An enlightened tomorrow would be welcomed.
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Two things:

1: The public will never give support if it is never proposed.

2: Nothing worth having is ever easy to get.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Two things:

1: The public will never give support if it is never proposed.

2: Nothing worth having is ever easy to get.
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Perhaps you have not noticed but the Michigan legislature is dominated in both houses by small government cut cut cut libertarian conservative types.
 
haymarket said:
Perhaps you have not noticed but the Michigan legislature is dominated in both houses by small government cut cut cut libertarian conservative types.
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So whats stopping you from advocating for it? Its got to start somewheres. I would bet that if you advocated for this kind of thing as hard as you have advocated for this registry then it would go somewhere.
 
Kal'Stang said:
So whats stopping you from advocating for it? Its got to start somewheres. I would bet that if you advocated for this kind of thing as hard as you have advocated for this registry then it would go somewhere.
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As I have already indicated: if you have some tried and true program that produces results, please present it and I will gladly educate myself about it.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Counsuling is a good place to start.
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Perhaps it is. And I would be more than eager to read about any successful programs you would like to me to look into.
 
Travelsonic said:
If it is modeled after the sex offender registry, it is bound to be riddled with the same logical quandaries, and real issues the list has now - from the ease of getting onto it, to the philosophical/moral issues associated with labeling people after they've committed a crime and paid their debt to society. IMO, if we allow ourselves to snap to an idea on an emotional note, and ignore the real questions surrounding the idea being supported emotionally, we're bound to make some grave errors - and do more harm than good.
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I think this is a good cautionary post. I'm not a big fan of even the sex offender registry for the reasons mentioned, although I do believe that, at heart, it is an important system. Of course, I don't really know how I would reform it either. It is a very tricky issue.

When it comes to animal abuse....why do regular citizens need to know? Unlike a sexual predator, I don't think animal abusers typically prey on the pets of neighbors. It is said that some deranged individuals, serial killers, etc. have been known to abuse animals, but the reverse is certainly not always true. I actually believe that most kids at one point or another in life perform some type of what might be deemed animal abuse. So I would also be curious to know what the definition is and where the line is drawn. Finally, animal abuse is not the same as a sexual psychological disorder where it is very difficult to cure someone of the impulse. So there is less of a justification for putting someone on a list that will effect their entire career because of what may even have been a one-time impulse.
 
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haymarket said:
Perhaps you have not noticed but the Michigan legislature is dominated in both houses by small government cut cut cut libertarian conservative types.
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There are no libertarian conservative types at large in office. The number of actual libertarians who have been elected to office is rather small. What you mean to say is that this push for legislation is dominated by Republicans, whom for all there talk are never shy at increasing government.
 
Ikari said:
There are no libertarian conservative types at large in office. The number of actual libertarians who have been elected to office is rather small. What you mean to say is that this push for legislation is dominated by Republicans, whom for all there talk are never shy at increasing government.
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Come to Lansing. I will take you on a tour of their offices. You can meet them. YOu will need more than two hands to count all the libertarian trappings like the DON'T TREAD ON ME flags and other obvious signs. Check the ALEC roster for a list.

They do NOT run as libertarians because that is the skull and crossbones of politics and would doom them to defeat. But they are conservative libertarian republicans just the same.
 
haymarket said:
Come to Lansing. I will take you on a tour of their offices. You can meet them. YOu will need more than two hands to count all the libertarian trappings like the DON'T TREAD ON ME flags and other obvious signs. Check the ALEC roster for a list.

They do NOT run as libertarians because that is the skull and crossbones of politics and would doom them to defeat. But they are conservative libertarian republicans just the same.
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I prefer to let action speak louder than words. I'm sure that lots of politicians say lots of things and put lots of different dressings around their office to try to portray themselves in a certain way to the voters. But if they don’t actually back up their propaganda with action, they aren’t actually of the group. Politicians run their mouths all the time, it’s what they do that is important. Libertarians in general would likely oppose these style lists. Don’t trust the Republocrats. Just because they dress like a libertarian doesn’t mean that they actually subscribe to the political philosophy.
 
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