View Poll Results: Is there a War on Women?

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    34 23.29%
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Thread: Is there a "War on Women" in the United States?

  1. #461
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    Spot the odd one out.

    The others actually exist.
    which one do you consider odd? looking at the theme i see Christmas not being directly about people, but it is an effective proxy againt the mainstream American view of Christian values.

    also the term victim is very dependant on perspective. for example, if i am forced to deal with an issue or harm that is someone else's fault, i am either a victim or not depending on how i feel about the situation. if that harm is something i agree with, (having to pay more taxes due to me raiaing my income) i am not a victim because i fundamentally agree with progressive taxation, but someone like turtledude certainly considers himself a victim. there is no objective standard here so we are both correct.

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    Re: Is there a "War on Women" in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    which one do you consider odd? looking at the theme i see Christmas not being directly about people, but it is an effective proxy againt the mainstream American view of Christian values.

    also the term victim is very dependant on perspective. for example, if i am forced to deal with an issue or harm that is someone else's fault, i am either a victim or not depending on how i feel about the situation. if that harm is something i agree with, (having to pay more taxes due to me raiaing my income) i am not a victim because i fundamentally agree with progressive taxation, but someone like turtledude certainly considers himself a victim. there is no objective standard here so we are both correct.
    Good luck telling a feminist that victimhood is subjective. They'll fight you to the very last drop of blood on that one.

    My point is that, with the exception of the supposed 'war on women', each of your examples might easily include those for whom victimhood is a stark reality. Therein lies the difference. Such as racism and homophobia loom large even today.

    You could ask a feminist how she's a victim. Socially? Legally? Economically? Where precisely is this 'war' waged? And how?

    Do feminists honestly believe that men live like kings, whilst women grovel on in abject misery, and brutal oppression? Of course not. They couldn't possibly justify that position. But we're to accept the idea anyway?

    Sorry. Denied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    Good luck telling a feminist that victimhood is subjective. They'll fight you to the very last drop of blood on that one.

    My point is that, with the exception of the supposed 'war on women', each of your examples might easily include those for whom victimhood is a stark reality. Therein lies the difference. Such as racism and homophobia loom large even today.

    You could ask a feminist how she's a victim. Socially? Legally? Economically? Where precisely is this 'war' waged? And how?

    Do feminists honestly believe that men live like kings, whilst women grovel on in abject misery, and brutal oppression? Of course not. They couldn't possibly justify that position. But we're to accept the idea anyway?

    Sorry. Denied.
    its pretty obvious that a person who is convinced that they are a victim isn't going to want to hear otherwise.

    obvious point is obvious, but it has no bearing on my argument.

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    Re: Is there a "War on Women" in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    its pretty obvious that a person who is convinced that they are a victim isn't going to want to hear otherwise.

    obvious point is obvious, but it has no bearing on my argument.
    To the contrary. I addressed your post directly. If you'd like a different answer, you could always posit a different argument.

    Next time you hear a feminist speaking of 'oppression' and 'inequality', simply ask them to give examples pertaining to their own life. Don't leave them to speak in vague and unfounded generalities.

    Ask them how the man standing next to them enjoys any more advantage than they do, for no other reason than that he's a man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    To the contrary. I addressed your post directly. If you'd like a different answer, you could always posit a different argument.

    Next time you hear a feminist speaking of 'oppression' and 'inequality', simply ask them to give examples pertaining to their own life. Don't leave them to speak in vague and unfounded generalities.

    Ask them how the man standing next to them enjoys any more advantage than they do, for no other reason than that he's a man.
    you never addressed the issue of perception except maybe stating your own perception which is within the theme of my point.

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    Re: Is there a "War on Women" in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    you never addressed the issue of perception except maybe stating your own perception which is within the theme of my point.
    I addressed it, both in pointing out how we're asked to accept a groundless claim, and in highlighting the difference between assumed victimhood and genuine examples, such as racism and homophobia.

    It's not sufficient to say that victimhood is subjective, where demands are made on account of it. Were it generally agreed that such subjectivity was the common denominator, no one could make any demands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    I addressed it, both in pointing out how we're asked to accept a groundless claim, and in highlighting the difference between assumed victimhood and genuine examples, such as racism and homophobia.

    It's not sufficient to say that victimhood is subjective, where demands are made on account of it. Were it generally agreed that such subjectivity was the common denominator, no one could make any demands.
    not sure if i agree completely. cultural assumptions are a valid standard for declaring victimhood as social expectations are usually the norm we measure against. the problem being of course that culture is a bit of a nebulous term, generally, i think it is sufficient. thus what one person thinks is valid, another may not.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-27-12 at 09:52 AM.

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    Re: Is there a "War on Women" in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    not sure if i agree completely. cultural assumptions are a valid standard for declaring victimhood. the problem being of course that culture is a bit of a nebulous term, generally, i think it is sufficient. thus what one person thinks is valid, another may not.
    And were it left at that, we'd have no problem. As it is, we have feminism making the claim that such victimhood is anything but subjective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoC_T View Post
    And were it left at that, we'd have no problem. As it is, we have feminism making the claim that such victimhood is anything but subjective.
    its pretty much impossible to make that claim. even the idea of natural rights and other views claimed by western society as cultural fundamentals are nothing more than cultural norms and cultural expectations.

    now it so happens that enough of society agrees on these norms (to verying degrees) that we can cheat a bit and call it objective because the idea is so often unchallenged we convince ourselves of its truth

    what some feminist claims as a harm is a harm to her, most likely (unless she is trying to be manipulative). it is what it is to both her and you.

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    Re: Is there a "War on Women" in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    its pretty much impossible to make that claim. even the idea of natural rights and other views claimed by western society as cultural fundamentals are nothing more than cultural norms and cultural expectations.

    now it so happens that enough of society agrees on these norms (to verying degrees) that we can cheat a bit and call it objective because the idea is so often unchallenged we convince ourselves of its truth

    what some feminist claims as a harm is a harm to her, most likely (unless she is trying to be manipulative). it is what it is to both her and you.
    Again, I agree. But these issues don't remain at the theoretical level. They assume a reality and actions, with an impact on society.

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