View Poll Results: Should capitalism be voluntary?

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  • It is and it should

    11 55.00%
  • It is not and it should

    2 10.00%
  • It is not and it shouldn't

    2 10.00%
  • It is and it shouldn't

    1 5.00%
  • Capitalism sucks anyways

    3 15.00%
  • I don't know

    0 0%
  • Other

    1 5.00%
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Thread: Should capitalism be voluntary?

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    joke Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Hi, fellows!

    We live in world where the default ideology is capitalism (well, corporatism disguised as capitalism, imho, but that's another topic).
    Do you think that's right? Did you ever vote to be capitalist or socialist or whatever? What does legitimate the system for you?

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Hi, fellows!

    We live in world where the default ideology is capitalism (well, corporatism disguised as capitalism, imho, but that's another topic).
    Do you think that's right? Did you ever vote to be capitalist or socialist or whatever? What does legitimate the system for you?
    I believe in Capitalism; however the purest form which is "no limit capitalism" tends to devolve into despotism or other tyranny of some form. I believe that Capitalism with provisions to limit Monopolies, Oligopolies, and other such collusions to control the market in one or more areas should be prohibited.

    With these safeguards in place I would feel confident in allowing the “open market” to take charge of almost anything.

    Oh and almost forgot, to ensure that individuals can be held more responsible for theft, loss or embezzlement of “client funds” in a corporation.

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    "Greed is all right, by the way... I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself." -- Ivan Boesky (later convicted of insider trading and inspiration for movie character Gordon Gekko)
    This is the attitude that has gripped those in the United States who act to undermine other people's efforts (a little simple, but I am tired). Who wouldn't like a little extra? But how far would you go to get it... what lines will you cross? A capitalist society makes the temptations too much to bear and too easy to feed, until one day, you have crossed the line and somehow committed an ill against fellow man.

    There is usually no choice regarding where you are born and raised. You become used to something, it is familiar and it feels good. To have other systems proposed or implemented is scary and objectionable, which his why we take issue with those different from us. If I had a choice I would not have chosen to be in a capitalist society, it would be nice if people had options. Can a person really opt-out of it once they are grown, have financial obligations etc...? If I could find a way I would, I do not want to be part of a society that rewards greed and shuns compassion.

    I find that greed, lust and envy cause serious problems and one way to start eliminating those problems is to eliminate the temptation. With income-sharing (always voluntary, never forced) and the right societal attitudes (sharing is good) we eliminate power-hungry beasts.

    I see so many people everyday that have a look about them that they will never be satisfied...
    "Greed is a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction." -- Erich Fromm (social psychologist and philosopher)
    ---your resident goddamn dirty hippie

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Hi, fellows!

    We live in world where the default ideology is capitalism (well, corporatism disguised as capitalism, imho, but that's another topic).
    Do you think that's right? Did you ever vote to be capitalist or socialist or whatever? What does legitimate the system for you?
    There's a reason the world moved towards free market capitalism, including Europe even though some here would disagree with that, its because the other systems failed.

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    This is the attitude that has gripped those in the United States who act to undermine other people's efforts (a little simple, but I am tired). Who wouldn't like a little extra? But how far would you go to get it... what lines will you cross? A capitalist society makes the temptations too much to bear and too easy to feed, until one day, you have crossed the line and somehow committed an ill against fellow man.

    There is usually no choice regarding where you are born and raised. You become used to something, it is familiar and it feels good. To have other systems proposed or implemented is scary and objectionable, which his why we take issue with those different from us. If I had a choice I would not have chosen to be in a capitalist society, it would be nice if people had options. Can a person really opt-out of it once they are grown, have financial obligations etc...? If I could find a way I would, I do not want to be part of a society that rewards greed and shuns compassion.

    I find that greed, lust and envy cause serious problems and one way to start eliminating those problems is to eliminate the temptation. With income-sharing (always voluntary, never forced) and the right societal attitudes (sharing is good) we eliminate power-hungry beasts.

    I see so many people everyday that have a look about them that they will never be satisfied...


    ---your resident goddamn dirty hippie
    Bolding is mine. I've seen you say this before that you favor voluntary income sharing. Which is fine. You're free to do that now if you can find other like minded individuals, but I'm curious what is the incentive for this to become a system wide practice beyond small close knit associations (like family)? If I make 30K a year and a my neighbor makes 100K, what is his incentive to share a portion of his income with me, a person he hardly even knows?

    As for eliminating power hungry people, I don't think that will ever happen. People are competitive and self interested by nature. And I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. Competition gives us incentive to strive for improvement, for greater efficiency.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Bolding is mine. I've seen you say this before that you favor voluntary income sharing. Which is fine. You're free to do that now if you can find other like minded individuals, but I'm curious what is the incentive for this to become a system wide practice beyond small close knit associations (like family)? If I make 30K a year and a my neighbor makes 100K, what is his incentive to share a portion of his income with me, a person he hardly even knows?

    As for eliminating power hungry people, I don't think that will ever happen. People are competitive and self interested by nature. And I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. Competition gives us incentive to strive for improvement, for greater efficiency.
    That is part of the idea-- like minded people would know that sharing is a good thing, altruism is a virtue and they will want to participate. There hardly seems any sense in pushing those who truly enjoy capitalism to join, they would be unhappy. You are looking for an incentive which is a capitalist idea, do you really need a reason to try something new or to support your neighbors?

    The process of eliminating power hungry people begins with like-minded people coming together and devising a plan that will reduce and maybe someday eliminate the pervasiveness of greed. What if we teach our kids about finance and varying theories on the stability of certain systems instead of Essay writing for 12th grade when they just finished essay writing for the 11th grade (is there much difference). How about teaching ethics philosophies instead of music theory--which should be some sort or elective?

    Competition can be an incentive yes, so make up competition that drives innovation. Show that all competition does not have to be rewarded with money or status, but with satisfaction and gratitude. All that takes is the power of thought.

    Did I mis anything---? some of this is in my head, but I always have more developing...

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Hi, fellows!

    We live in world where the default ideology is capitalism (well, corporatism disguised as capitalism, imho, but that's another topic).
    Do you think that's right? Did you ever vote to be capitalist or socialist or whatever? What does legitimate the system for you?
    The default system is capitalism. The default ideology used to rationalize/put up with capitalism varies widely by time, place, family, local or regional culture, etc.

    Practically no one alive today had any significant say in the arrangement of the order they live under. Most are born into a local political and economic order which doesn't open itself up to major, let alone revolutionary, changes during their lifetime.

    Capitalism is not dominant because of merit, or because of popularity, of from ideological agreement with it. Capitalism is dominant today because it is a successful coercive system. It doesn't ask for or need the consent of most people; it requires only that those few who are inclined to resist it are prevented from success.

    Coercive systems are especially hard to overturn because -- by their very nature as coercive systems -- their normal operation deals in forcing compliance, while cooperative systems are based upon people working WITH each other. Thus, coercive systems can always force what amounts to a "home field advantage"; the normal tools of daily life under coercive systems lend themselves far more effectively to suppression and defeat of dissidents than the tools of cooperation lend themselves to overturning an entrenched coercive regime. It's a permanent underdog situation for any genuine proponent of real freedom.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    There's a reason the world moved towards free market capitalism, including Europe even though some here would disagree with that, its because the other systems failed.
    May be, but do we have the option to opt out or we have to march altogether to the bright free market capitalism future (btw, where is that, I can't see it)?

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    I truly believe capitalism is voluntary. America is a capitalist nation for the most part, and nobody is keeping anyone here. If you dislike capitalism, I encourage you to leave and not drag everyone else down.

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    That is part of the idea-- like minded people would know that sharing is a good thing, altruism is a virtue and they will want to participate. There hardly seems any sense in pushing those who truly enjoy capitalism to join, they would be unhappy. You are looking for an incentive which is a capitalist idea, do you really need a reason to try something new or to support your neighbors?
    Yeah, I do. Supporting my family comes natural. Close friends, sure. But relative strangers who happens to live near me? I don't feel compelled to look out for their well being at the expense of my own well being.

    Competition can be an incentive yes, so make up competition that drives innovation. Show that all competition does not have to be rewarded with money or status, but with satisfaction and gratitude. All that takes is the power of thought.

    Did I mis anything---? some of this is in my head, but I always have more developing...
    I don't think satisfaction and gratitude are going to be sufficient motivators for most people. Some people do take jobs for the personal satisfaction they get from them and the monetary side is a secondary concern, but most people's primary incentive to work is to make money that they can then use to better their lives. How much personal satisfaction do you think the janitor gets from his job? Or the line cook at a chain resturant? Or check clerk at the local grocery store? Or countless other jobs that need to be done, but aren't very high on the personal satisfaction index.

    People are generally self interested. That's just a basic fact of human nature. And innovation can be hard and risky work, so it needs to be incentivized. Monetary rewards can improve my standard of living and are a powerful motivator. A pat on the back for a job well done, that doesn't really do much for me in the long run.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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