View Poll Results: Should capitalism be voluntary?

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  • It is and it should

    11 55.00%
  • It is not and it should

    2 10.00%
  • It is not and it shouldn't

    2 10.00%
  • It is and it shouldn't

    1 5.00%
  • Capitalism sucks anyways

    3 15.00%
  • I don't know

    0 0%
  • Other

    1 5.00%
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Thread: Should capitalism be voluntary?

  1. #11
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    The default system is capitalism. The default ideology used to rationalize/put up with capitalism varies widely by time, place, family, local or regional culture, etc.

    Practically no one alive today had any significant say in the arrangement of the order they live under. Most are born into a local political and economic order which doesn't open itself up to major, let alone revolutionary, changes during their lifetime.

    Capitalism is not dominant because of merit, or because of popularity, of from ideological agreement with it. Capitalism is dominant today because it is a successful coercive system. It doesn't ask for or need the consent of most people; it requires only that those few who are inclined to resist it are prevented from success.

    Coercive systems are especially hard to overturn because -- by their very nature as coercive systems -- their normal operation deals in forcing compliance, while cooperative systems are based upon people working WITH each other. Thus, coercive systems can always force what amounts to a "home field advantage"; the normal tools of daily life under coercive systems lend themselves far more effectively to suppression and defeat of dissidents than the tools of cooperation lend themselves to overturning an entrenched coercive regime. It's a permanent underdog situation for any genuine proponent of real freedom.
    Can you dumb that last paragraph down a bit for me please?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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  2. #12
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I truly believe capitalism is voluntary. America is a capitalist nation for the most part, and nobody is keeping anyone here. If you dislike capitalism, I encourage you to leave and not drag everyone else down.
    Whether capitalism is voluntary or not is not a matter of opinion or feeling. It is coercive.

    NOT because anyone likes it or doesn't like it, but because, in fact, it is based upon forcing people to work under conditions directly hostile to their own interests.

    Like or don't like...is completely irrelevant.

    "Should capitalism be voluntary?" is a bizarre question, because the responses to that question don't change the fact that it ISN'T voluntary. It is inherently coercive, and no number of people feeling that's a good or bad thing will change that.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  3. #13
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    "Should capitalism be voluntary?" is a bizarre question, because the responses to that question don't change the fact that it ISN'T voluntary. It is inherently coercive, and no number of people feeling that's a good or bad thing will change that.
    How about freedom then?

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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Whether capitalism is voluntary or not is not a matter of opinion or feeling. It is coercive.
    False. I don't buy the arguments of those Marxist-Leninists who toss out ignorant terms such as "wage slavery". There is no coercion involved. It's simple - work or die (or find some other source of income). This is not unique to capitalism. Vladimir Lenin himself said, "He who will not work, neither shall he eat."

    NOT because anyone likes it or doesn't like it, but because, in fact, it is based upon forcing people to work under conditions directly hostile to their own interests.
    Nobody forces you to do anything. If you do not like the "conditions directly hostile to their own interests", do something else. The only people it shows hardship to are the lazy and unambitious.

  5. #15
    Professor cmakaioz's Avatar
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Can you dumb that last paragraph down a bit for me please?
    Sure :p

    Take two groups with different approaches to doing things...we'll call them Builders and Bullies.

    Builders work with each other. They may argue (endlessly), they may not see eye to eye on everything, but at the end of the day they -- together -- figure out what to do to solve problems and take care of things by working with each other.

    Bullies work against each other. When they don't agree on how to do something, they force others to yield to them by violence. This isn't just beating people up (although that's a common option); it's also things like hoarding things for themselves beyond what they can use, blocking people from supporting themselves by locking up resources, etc. They don't just strong-arm people into doing things their way; they break up alternatives as well.

    Whenever Builders and Bullies come into conflict, Bullies tend to have an advantage in that they are already used to the mindset, the strategies, and the tactics associated with working against each other. Bullies are good at starting and maintaining actions which force others to comply because that's already their normal approach to doing things. Builders, on the other hand, are vulnerable to easy disruption, as they are used to working WITH each other.

    Builders have the strength of collaboration; they can do many things which are difficult or impossible to do were it not for working with each other. This strength builds up over time as knowledge, experience, and resources are accumulated and shared. Builders face an ongoing challenge of dealing with their own progression of success; as they get better at doing things, the expectations and standards of access among the people rise, and new challenges in quantity and quality of production, freedom, and ethical ideals are opened up.

    Bullies have the strength of not needing agreement; they just decide to do things and if others don't like it, such opposition is crushed. This strength builds up as rivals are defeated and coercive power consolidated. Bullies face an ongoing challenge of both other Bullies as well as the spiraling inefficiency of coercion itself, namely: people working against each other is inherently and dramatically wasteful and difficult (relative to people working with each other).

    Historically, the Builders correspond to the principles, and practitioners, of cooperation, while the Bullies correspond to the principles and practitioners of competition:

    cooperation: two or more sentient actors working with each other to achieve a shared goal
    competition: two or more sentient actors working against each other for achievement of an exclusive goal

    All coercive systems, including (but not limited to) capitalism, follow some variation of the competitive approach (the Bullies) at the highest level.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  6. #16
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Nobody forces you to do anything.
    Everything you've written is so much white noise and religious drivel until you muster something resembling evidence.

    In this case, you've made an impossible road for yourself, since this isn't a matter of opinion, but it's fun watching doctrinaire libertarians squirm on this anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    If you do not like the "conditions directly hostile to their own interests", do something else.
    Reality check: there's no means of opting-out short of secretly building up an interplanetary colonial expedition. You seem to be operating from the bizarre delusion that we're all born to a politico economic blank slate, and we can just choose any system we'd prefer at will. That's nonsense. We're born into an entrenched system and that system's imperatives must be appeased before/during any attempts to break free of it and build GENUINELY non coercive alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    The only people it shows hardship to are the lazy and unambitious.
    Would you like to retract that ridiculous statement now (to avoid embarrassing yourself further), or would you like me to drop a list of famous people who have endured hardships from capitalism and/or actively and thoroughly criticized the principles and operation of capitalism...yet are equally famous for NOT being "lazy and unambitious"??!?

    If you wanted to actually present a semi-serious post and put some effort into it as a "do-over", by all means go right ahead. I won't tell anyone.
    Last edited by cmakaioz; 03-15-12 at 10:45 PM.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  7. #17
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    How about freedom then?
    Freedom's great (so I hear). In western terms, however, This Town Ain't Big Enough for freedom and capitalism...one of them's got to go. I'm a fan of freedom sticking around and radically expanding, so of course I hope freedom wins that fight.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  8. #18
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Freedom's great (so I hear). In western terms, however, This Town Ain't Big Enough for freedom and capitalism...one of them's got to go. I'm a fan of freedom sticking around and radically expanding, so of course I hope freedom wins that fight.
    Capitalism is nothing more than freedom in the field of economics, or economic liberty. You dont set up or select a capitalist economy, you recognize individual liberty and capitalism is the result.

  9. #19
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Capitalism is nothing more than freedom in the field of economics, or economic liberty. You dont set up or select a capitalist economy, you recognize individual liberty and capitalism is the result.
    This is exactly the kind of meaningless drivel which works against recognition of basic reality on the ground.

    No, capitalism is absolutely NOT "nothing more than freedom in the field of economics."

    Capitalism, while having some range, is still specific:

    Capitalism is any of a range of systems in which production and distribution are carried out on a competitive basis, primarily for the sake of consolidation of private profit.

    There's a lot of room in there for variation and experimentation, for different flavors of capitalism, but capitalism is not just whatever the hell people decide to call capitalism, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with freedom in economics. Quite the contrary, in fact, as capitalism requires and reinforces a wide range of fundamentally coercive political and economic relationships. Once again this is all independent of anyone's FEELINGS.

    The religious libertarian ideal -- of an imaginary free market and idealized buyers and sellers -- not only has never existed, but is incapable of ever existing. The basic prerequisites of a genuinely free market are among the same conditions which would preclude the capitalist (one whose primary income is from holding title to something) from existing in the first place.

    The capitalism we actually have and live under is an entirely different beast.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  10. #20
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    Re: Should capitalism be voluntary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    May be, but do we have the option to opt out or we have to march altogether to the bright free market capitalism future (btw, where is that, I can't see it)?
    If you want to opt out, I suppose you can go to North Korea. I'm sure they'd like the publicity of someone defecting to their country. And from what I understand, there's never been a "bright free market capitalism future." But if we had gone the other way, down the communist road, the world would certainly be much dimmer than it is under a capitalist system.

    I almost feel like you want everyone to vote for capitalism vs. socialism, which I think is a horrible idea, because people honestly don't know what's best for them. To put the fate of humanity in the hands of the masses would be a mistake. At least under the capitalist model we have an incentive system that works, and the system in general works better than the alternative, a communist model.
    Veni. Vidi. Vici.
    -Gaius Julius Caesar
    The Only Thing to Fear is Fear Itself.
    -Franklin Delano Roosevelt

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