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Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

ChezC3 said:
It then becomes a matter of force. Does the denounced authority have the capability to force its authority, and by extension its laws upon the those who don't give their consent? If it does, is this not tyranny? Yes, yes it is.
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What law(s) are you talking about, exactly? Slavery? I don't give a damn if the people of a state who supported slavery refused to give their "consent" on eliminating slavery.

ChezC3 said:
We are a country where our government's authority is derived from the consent of the governed.(supposedly) If enough people in a territory, a State revoke their consent and place it in the hands of another, than the government who lost their consent can pound sand.
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No. We are a perpetual Union. A state cannot unilaterally secede from the Union.
 
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LaMidRighter said:
2) Should have ended the tariff system that kept the south at an economic disadvantage. The tariffs put Europe at an advantage trading with the south's own country. This was a main factor leading to the intial tensions that ignited over the slavery issue.
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You're correct with that. I read a book by Bruce Catton and he stated the same thing. Good book too! ;)
 
Influential means little to me.

Hitler was incredibly influential on Germany, the Soviet Union and a host of other European countries - but not for any good reason.

The 9/11 attackers were very influential on American foreign policy after 9/11 - again, for only terrible reasons.

I prefer to judge on best/worst rather then most influential.
 
The people who are angry that slavery is illegal just perplex me.
 
Wrong. The man edged on the south to attack just so he could wage a war on the American people that resulted in thousands of people being killed, starving to death, and being raped in the process. All so he could deny self determination of the states.
 
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Jack Webb said:
This is probably a bad idea for a poll. I just want to apologize right now for starting this poll. I'm already embarrassed...

Here's one opinion:

Top 10 Most Influential Presidents
By Martin Kelly, About.com Guide

"Of the 43 men who have been president of the United States, there are some truly clear choices of who were the most important and influential presidents.

1. Abraham Lincoln
Abraham Lincoln saved the Union during the American Civil War. His leadership during the war was one of no compromise but at the same time understanding that he would eventually have to unite the states once the North won the war. His actions eventually led to the abolition of slavery across the United States."

Ranking the Top Ten Most Influential Presidents

***
Here's another source:

Historical rankings of Presidents of the United States

"George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt are consistently ranked at the top of the lists."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

***
And another:

Lincoln wins: Honest Abe tops new presidential survey

"It's been 145 years since Abraham Lincoln appeared on a ballot, but admiration for the man who saved the union and sparked the end of slavery is as strong as ever, according to a new survey.

Lincoln finished first in a ranking by historians of the 42 former White House occupants."

Lincoln wins: Honest Abe tops new presidential survey - CNN

***
Does everyone agree?

How long was Killing Lincoln by Bill O'Reilly the New York Times best-seller? It's still in the no. 2 position right now.

I can't find anyone that's critical of Honest Abe. I guess this is a non-subject to everyone. I apologize again, I'm sorry.
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I think it's unfair to Lincoln to criticize his wrongdoings in a vacuum.

I think it is also necessary to look at the wrongdoings of the Southern states in perpetuating the enslavement of other human beings, especially when so many other nations at that time had abolished slavery, or were taking steps to abolish slavery.

So I think the wrongdoings of Lincoln don't come anywhere close to the wrongdoings of the Southern institution of slavery.
 
A few thousand white men in the South decided for the millions that they ruled over with an iron fist, and stole their labor, that stealing their labor was worth them dying for. Well duh. The southern tyrants and slave masters didn't want to lose their servants. They have no legal or moral authority. Lincoln was and is hero of the United States, and one of our greatest Presidents.
 
captainawesome said:
A few thousand white men in the South decided for the millions that they ruled over with an iron fist, and stole their labor, that stealing their labor was worth them dying for. Well duh. The southern tyrants and slave masters didn't want to lose their servants. They have no legal or moral authority. Lincoln was and is hero of the United States, and one of our greatest Presidents.
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Tell that to all the people killed and raped as the north sweep through the south killing, raping and burning everything in their path. The best path forward to solve slavery was never war and death, but social evolution and eventually law. This is proven by looking at how other countries solved the problem and how long the hardships of the black population was after it was ended. In America it took another 100 years for things to start working out, but in other parts of the world that was not necessary.
 
Henrin said:
Tell that to all the people killed and raped as the north sweep through the south killing, raping and burning everything in their path. The best path forward to solve slavery was never war and death, but social evolution and eventually law. This is proven by looking at how other countries solved the problem and how long the hardships of the black population was after it was ended. In America it took another 100 years for things to start working out, but in other parts of the world that was not necessary.
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If the south hadn't doubled down on the institution that would have been possible, but a few thousand white guys tried to set themselves up as a new feudal lordships. That could not stand.
 
Jack Webb said:
This is probably a bad idea for a poll. I just want to apologize right now for starting this poll. I'm already embarrassed...

Here's one opinion:

Top 10 Most Influential Presidents
By Martin Kelly, About.com Guide

"Of the 43 men who have been president of the United States, there are some truly clear choices of who were the most important and influential presidents.

1. Abraham Lincoln
Abraham Lincoln saved the Union during the American Civil War. His leadership during the war was one of no compromise but at the same time understanding that he would eventually have to unite the states once the North won the war. His actions eventually led to the abolition of slavery across the United States."

Ranking the Top Ten Most Influential Presidents

***
Here's another source:

Historical rankings of Presidents of the United States

"George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt are consistently ranked at the top of the lists."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

***
And another:

Lincoln wins: Honest Abe tops new presidential survey

"It's been 145 years since Abraham Lincoln appeared on a ballot, but admiration for the man who saved the union and sparked the end of slavery is as strong as ever, according to a new survey.

Lincoln finished first in a ranking by historians of the 42 former White House occupants."

Lincoln wins: Honest Abe tops new presidential survey - CNN

***
Does everyone agree?

How long was Killing Lincoln by Bill O'Reilly the New York Times best-seller? It's still in the no. 2 position right now.

I can't find anyone that's critical of Honest Abe. I guess this is a non-subject to everyone. I apologize again, I'm sorry.
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Great thread dude. No sarcasm. I'm actually just enjoying the read more than anything else.
 
captainawesome said:
If the south hadn't doubled down on the institution that would have been possible, but a few thousand white guys tried to set themselves up as a new feudal lordships. That could not stand.
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That would have never happened if the north wasn't pushing legal force down their throats. Look, slavery was dieing and instead of getting aggressive, the north should of just helped the process go quicker.

Btw, not all the states had such conditions.
 
Henrin said:
That would have never happened if the north wasn't pushing legal force down their throats. Look, slavery was dieing and instead of getting aggressive, the north should of just helped the process go quicker.
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They did help it go quicker. Slavery ended far sooner because of the war than it otherwise would have. The south didn't want to follow U.S. law and tried to leave. They learned the hard way nope can't do that.
 
captainawesome said:
They did help it go quicker. Slavery ended far sooner because of the war than it otherwise would have. The south didn't want to follow U.S. law and tried to leave. They learned the hard way nope can't do that.
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i mean by social pressure. In any event, remember what I already said, the next 100 years of black hardship would have never happened if the war did not occur. Slavery would have ended and you would have found that people would have been far more willing to give blacks equal rights across the board in a much faster time frame. Yes, the first step would have been slightly longer, but the following steps would have been much, much shorter. The fact is history shows that war to solve slavery is the least efficient way towards the end goal of equal rights.
 
Henrin said:
i mean by social pressure. In any event, remember what I already said, the next 100 years of black hardship would have never happened if the war did not occur. Slavery would have ended and you would have found that people would have been far more willing to give blacks equal rights across the board in a much faster time frame. Yes, the first step would have been slightly longer, but the following steps would have been much, much shorter. The fact is history shows that war to solve slavery is the least efficient way towards the end goal of equal rights.
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Oh racism didn't come about because of the civil war. The hardships would be there regardless. Freedom is earned by blood. That's just how it goes.
 
captainawesome said:
Oh racism didn't come about because of the civil war. The hardships would be there regardless. Freedom is earned by blood. That's just how it goes.
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That is not how it was for other parts of the world, so no, freedom doesn't have to come from blood.

In any event, I wasn't saying that racism came from war, but war towards ending slavery history shows make it last longer at higher levels than it otherwise would have. The fact is, that when you make people do something by force they will usually resist and lock down on their position and war causes it worse than anything else.
 
Gipper said:
He was definitely one of, if not the, most influential presidents ever. He was also one of the most tyrannical.

He didn't give a damn about blacks or their plight. He himself said that if he could save the Union and not free a single slave, he would. All the talk about Bush suspending habeus corpus? Lincoln did it freely and blatantly. Dissenters would be shot on the White House lawn under the guise of treason.

If you want to believe the American 6h grade social studies and worship him, that's your problem. In my mind, he will go down as probably the biggest despot in American politics.
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That quote of his seems to get misused a lot. Lincoln ran on an abolitionist platform and was staunchly opposed to the expansion of slavery into new states. To state that "he didn't give a damn about blacks or their plight" is an ignorant misinterpretation of what he said as the union began to unravel, IMO.
 
Henrin said:
That is not how it was for other parts of the world, so no, freedom doesn't have to come from blood.

In any event, I wasn't saying that racism came from war, but war towards ending slavery history shows make it last longer at higher levels than it otherwise would have.
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and your verifiable evidence of that is .... ?????
 
Henrin said:
That is not how it was for other parts of the world, so no, freedom doesn't have to come from blood.

In any event, I wasn't saying that racism came from war, but war towards ending slavery history shows make it last longer at higher levels than it otherwise would have. The fact is, that when you make people do something by force they will usually resist and lock down on their position and war causes it worse than anything else.
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Perhaps. No way of really knowing. The culture of the south and of the U.S. is much different than that of Europe. The south IMHO needed some killing to straiten them out.
 
calamity said:
That quote of his seems to get misused a lot. Lincoln ran on an abolitionist platform and was staunchly opposed to the expansion of slavery into new states. To state that "he didn't give a damn about blacks or their plight" is an ignorant misinterpretation of what he said as the union began to unravel, IMO.
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He said he didn't care flat out on the floor of the house in 1849.
 
captainawesome said:
No need to misquote him. His views are easy to find. Why not just read them?
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I didn't quote him first off, and second, his racist views came out more than anywhere else on the floor of the house.
 
captainawesome said:
Perhaps. No way of really knowing. The culture of the south and of the U.S. is much different than that of Europe. The south IMHO needed some killing to straiten them out.
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I'm guessing all those women needed a good raping too and those children needed gunned down to get the point across hard enough. Nothing like making people hate you for 100+ years to solve a problem.

Btw, Europe had it worse than we ever did.
 
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It's always important to note that the United States actually played a very small part in the worldwide slavery industry. Out of twelve million slaves brought to the New World, the United States only received 600,000, about 5%.

The American blacks and America hating Liberals try very hard to portray the United States as the Slavery Hub of the world, but that is simply untrue, slavery was primarily a Spanish, Portuguese and French enterprise.

Lincoln actually thought it would be good to send the blacks back to Africa, but it's difficult to find comments on that proposal from the blacks, even now.
 
Hopefully, we haven't had our best president yet. I'd be pleased to be able to move Lincoln down the list a bit.
 
Henrin said:
I didn't quote him first off, and second, his racist views came out more than anywhere else on the floor of the house.
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He consistently maintained a belief in ending slavery.
 
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