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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    Or because their racist.
    That too, but I honestly think it isn't as salient. People are too quick to snatch up the racist card.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    Or because their racist.
    We're not racist, and you suck at grammar.

    Wow, you learned TWO things today...better go lay down and rest.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This is the most bald faced kind of apologism. "Slavery wasn't good, but it wasn't worth fighting a war over." Is what your argument really boils down to. It is why most people find it a disgusting argument. As to your second point, you want me to show you where armed strength and legal authority prevented the re-occurrence of rights violations? Those examples are innumerable in the 20th Century alone, surely that isn't what you are asking.
    I'm asking you where it gave rise to people being seen as equal and created a general acceptance of those people. Go ahead and find an example of that. Forcing people to behave in the way you want and them doing so on their own free will are not equal.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post


    Ownership is the exclusive right to use and control a particular thing. Denying people from the use of your property is part of property rights. It's the same for your home, your business, or your body and hell even your labor.
    And as long as your property is NOT open to the general public and makes NO use of any taxpayer funding or governmental support - you might have an argument.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And as long as your property is NOT open to the general public and makes NO use of any taxpayer funding or governmental support - you might have an argument.
    No business is open to the public, but to who the owner wants in. Stop believing in myths, hay.

    As for public money, no, that does not make private property somehow public property. The rights of the owner are unchanged.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And as long as your property is NOT open to the general public and makes NO use of any taxpayer funding or governmental support - you might have an argument.
    You say that as an excuse to make a blanket statement about how EVERYTHING has taxpayer funding and/or government support - akin to Obama saying "you didn't build that".

    Leave it to a liberal to take credit for another's work.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm asking you where it gave rise to people being seen as equal and created a general acceptance of those people. Go ahead and find an example of that. Forcing people to behave in the way you want and them doing so on their own free will are not equal.
    The Jews in Germany. Moreover as usual the apologist misses the point. The Radical Republicans rightly did not care if reactionary Southern whites quickly acclimated to blacks being free and equal in their midst. Their goal was long term, and entirely focused on the morality of redressing horrendous wrongs and the cost was worth paying. The other great folly of reconstruction was not more firmly committing to land reform and allocation which would have given blacks a stake in their communities and an economic tool for social betterment.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    The Jews in Germany. Moreover as usual the apologist misses the point.
    Prove to me that the acceptance of Jews in Germany has anything to do with legal force. Please, go right ahead.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That isn't true at all, lol. The Civil War was actually marked by very very few civilian casualties which has been rather intriguing to historians. It is why massacres like Fort Pillow have garnered so much attention, because they were so rare. The exception to all of this is of course Missouri where an internecine partisan communal war claimed several hundred to several thousand lives on both sides. But no, rampant slaughter and rape did not occur.
    WTF? Are you actually claiming there was no campaign to go across the south doing what I said? Really?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    No business is open to the public, but to who the owner wants in. Stop believing in myths, hay.

    As for public money, no, that does not make private property somehow public property. The rights of the owner are unchanged.
    Really now!!!!!! That is a shock. So when somebody puts an ad in the paper advertising their store - they are not open to the public? Does the term PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS mean anything to you?

    The public and their taxpayer money helped make that business possible. Unless the guy is on his own private island which was totally paid for by himself, the public and public money helped make that business possible.

    You badly need to educate yourself on this issue to avoid making such gaffes about the way things are in the REAL USA and not some right wing fantasy version that is desired.

    http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/adaqa2.html

    Public Accommodations

    Q. What are public accommodations?
    A. A public accommodation is a private entity that owns, operates, leases, or leases to, a place of public accommodation. Places of public accommodation include a wide range of entities, such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, doctors' offices, pharmacies, retail stores, museums, libraries, parks, private schools, and day care centers. Private clubs and religious organizations are exempt from the ADA's title III requirements for public accommodations.
    and this will give you the law in the real USA

    http://www.citizensource.com/History...A1964/CRA2.htm

    TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION

    OOOSEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
    OOO(b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:
    OOO)(1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence;
    OOO)(2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;
    OO)O(3) any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment; and
    OOO)(4) any establishment (A)(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or (ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment, and (B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such covered establishment.
    OOO(c) The operations of an establishment affect commerce within the meaning of this title if (1) it is one of the establishments described in paragraph (1) of subsection (b); (2) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (2) of subsection (b), it serves or offers to serve interstate travelers or a substantial portion of the food which it serves, or gasoline or other products which it sells, has moved in commerce; (3) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (3) of subsection (b), it customarily presents films, performances, athletic teams, exhibitions, or other sources of entertainment which move in commerce; and (4) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (4) of subsection (b), it is physically located within the premises of, or there is physically located within its premises, an establishment the operations of which affect commerce within the meaning of this subsection. For purposes of this section, "commerce" means travel, trade, traffic, commerce, transportation, or communication among the several States, or between the District of Columbia and any State, or between any foreign country or any territory or possession and any State or the District of Columbia, or between points in the same State but through any other State or the District of Columbia or a foreign country.
    OOO(d) Discrimination or segregation by an establishment is supported by State action within the meaning of this title if such discrimination or segregation (1) is carried on under color of any law, statute, ordinance, or regulation; or (2) is carried on under color of any custom or usage required or enforced by officials of the State or political subdivision thereof; or (3) is required by action of the State or political subdivision thereof.
    OOO(e) The provisions of this title shall not apply to a private club or other establishment not in fact open to the public, except to the extent that the facilities of such establishment are made available to the customers or patrons of an establishment within the scope of subsection (b).
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-09-13 at 04:28 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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