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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Exactly.
    So is that essentially based upon the libertarian non-aggression principle? It would seem to be a logical conclusion. Does the libertarian support laws designed to protect property and oppose laws that violate property? (And am I correct in understanding that a libertarian regards each person as having a property in his own body?)

    Frankly, I find such a position to be commonsensical. If aggression against person and property is wrong, then it's even wrong for the government.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Well, your starting point is a common tactic....Let's start off by demonizing people for their supporting the South's right to succession by relating them to "slavery apologists". I have said many, many times, this is childish. No one is supporting slavery, no one is supporting the South's argument for slavery. You've attempted to infer this upon me, and I'd ask you don't do it again. I merely argue for the right of succession.

    Now what people always fail to address about Ft Sumter is that the CSA didn't just up and open a can of whoopass on them. They gave them more than a reasonable chance to leave. It was Lincoln who kept them there in order to provoke confrontation and give pretext for War.

    I never said that peaceful seperation was possible I said that it SHOULD have been. Meaning it is what "ought" to have happen. The Tyrant would have never allowed this, but he SHOULD have.
    They didn't have to leave, that isn't how this works. The thief doesn't get to wait outside the property and tell the owners they've had plenty of time to vacate. It was federal property under the authority of the United States government.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    Being able to run a racist business is not fundamental to freedom. That is silly.
    For the most part I actually agree with Henrin on this one.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    They didn't have to leave, that isn't how this works. The thief doesn't get to wait outside the property and tell the owners they've had plenty of time to vacate. It was federal property under the authority of the United States government.
    As I said some time ago, it was better to work out a deal for the property instead of simply refusing to talk. In any event, when you are leaving the nation you can not have their military bases in your country. It's just not wise to put yourself at that kind of risk. I'm not saying attacking the fort was justified, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing either if I was in the position of leaving the nation.

    Saying all of this, I find the process in which the federal government came about to owning the forts questionable.
    Last edited by Henrin; 03-13-13 at 03:15 PM.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Well, your starting point is a common tactic....Let's start off by demonizing people for their supporting the South's right to succession by relating them to "slavery apologists". I have said many, many times, this is childish. No one is supporting slavery, no one is supporting the South's argument for slavery. You've attempted to infer this upon me, and I'd ask you don't do it again. I merely argue for the right of succession.

    Now what people always fail to address about Ft Sumter is that the CSA didn't just up and open a can of whoopass on them. They gave them more than a reasonable chance to leave. It was Lincoln who kept them there in order to provoke confrontation and give pretext for War.

    I never said that peaceful seperation was possible I said that it SHOULD have been. Meaning it is what "ought" to have happen. The Tyrant would have never allowed this, but he SHOULD have.
    No. Most people just don't care if the South was able to construct a defensible legal argument for secession. What they care about, and rightly so, is that the Confederacy was an aristocratic slave power that deserved to be extinguished. That the deep wound it would have inflicted on the United States, our rise to power, and the notion of democratic rule in general would have been grievous.

    This is why people who defend the South's right to secede and believe it would have been a better outcome are always vilified as slavery apologists, and always will be. Because they are more fanatically interested in the legalisms in question than the practical realities of slavery and the impact secession would have had on the country and for millions held in bondage.

    The CSA deserved to die, and most of us are glad it was crushed.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    As I said some time ago, it was better to work out a deal for the property instead of simply refusing to talk. In any event, when you are leaving the nation you can not have their miltary bases in your country. It's just not wise to put yourself at that kind of risk. I'm not saying attacking the fort was justified, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing either if I was in the position of leaving the nation.
    I don't really care either way. Retrospectively it was a good thing that they attacked Fort Sumter as it galvanized the morale and might of the Union.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I don't really care either way. Retrospectively it was a good thing that they attacked Fort Sumter as it galvanized the morale and might of the Union.
    If I recall that was part of the reason Lincoln refused to leave when advised to do so by his own advisors.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If I recall that was part of the reason Lincoln refused to leave when advised to do so by his own advisors.
    It was something that was obviously considered. The bigger issue was that the Federal Government could not legitimize the rebellion by willingly abandoning federal property, nor could they give in to pressures to avoid a resupply. The Fort had to be maintained in the face of rebel pressure for a variety of political and symbolic reasons, likewise the rebels were subject to mob and radical planter pressure to strike somewhere. Lincoln hoped that no matter what would happen the South would strike first.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    It was something that was obviously considered. The bigger issue was that the Federal Government could not legitimize the rebellion by willingly abandoning federal property, nor could they give in to pressures to avoid a resupply. The Fort had to be maintained in the face of rebel pressure for a variety of political and symbolic reasons, likewise the rebels were subject to mob and radical planter pressure to strike somewhere. Lincoln hoped that no matter what would happen the South would strike first.
    Actually he needed them to strike first and he knew that if he ordered the personal to stay where they were the south would attack the base and this would give him a reason and justification to declare war.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Actually he needed them to strike first and he knew that if he ordered the personal to stay where they were the south would attack the base and this would give him a reason and justification to declare war.
    There were multiple reasons, we have fairly minute diary entries on those cabinet meetings as well as letters and retrospectives.

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