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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    How so? Because he suspended habeas corpus during a time of rebellion?

    Presidents have done worse.
    Because he denied people the right to self determination.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Because he denied people the right to self determination.
    That would be great if secession were legal. But, it's not.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    That would be great if secession were legal. But, it's not.
    Secession is beyond legality. Secession is denying the authority who is enforcing the legality.

    It's not illegal if you don't recognize the authority behind the law. You don't recognize the law because you don't recognize its authority.

    It then becomes a matter of force. Does the denounced authority have the capability to force its authority, and by extension its laws upon the those who don't give their consent? If it does, is this not tyranny? Yes, yes it is.

    We are a country where our government's authority is derived from the consent of the governed.(supposedly) If enough people in a territory, a State revoke their consent and place it in the hands of another, than the government who lost their consent can pound sand.

    Legal shmeagal...

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." -Lincoln

    Slavery is probably the most atrocious part of our history, and Lincoln did help put it to the end, but it was not his sole motivation for the war he fought. I see him as neither a hero or a villain.
    Make no mistake, the Civil War was about slavery. The South seceded because in their eyes, an anti-slavery President was elected, and they feared Lincoln would take their slaves. The "social and economic differences" argument has some merit, until you look and see that half of the country had a society and economy that was based on racial slavery.

    This famous quote from Lincoln that gets trotted out every time is taken out of context. What he's saying is that preserving the Union was first and foremost, but he was certainly anti-slavery. It was also a political statement intended to try to calm the fears of Southerners that he would take their slaves by executive writ.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    He was a despot and a tyrant. Sic semper tyrannis
    Dear Mr. Booth,

    I thought you were dead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  6. #26
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    It then becomes a matter of force. Does the denounced authority have the capability to force its authority, and by extension its laws upon the those who don't give their consent? If it does, is this not tyranny? Yes, yes it is.
    What law(s) are you talking about, exactly? Slavery? I don't give a damn if the people of a state who supported slavery refused to give their "consent" on eliminating slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    We are a country where our government's authority is derived from the consent of the governed.(supposedly) If enough people in a territory, a State revoke their consent and place it in the hands of another, than the government who lost their consent can pound sand.
    No. We are a perpetual Union. A state cannot unilaterally secede from the Union.
    Last edited by zstep18; 03-09-13 at 10:30 AM.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    2) Should have ended the tariff system that kept the south at an economic disadvantage. The tariffs put Europe at an advantage trading with the south's own country. This was a main factor leading to the intial tensions that ignited over the slavery issue.
    You're correct with that. I read a book by Bruce Catton and he stated the same thing. Good book too!
    "The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." `Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Influential means little to me.

    Hitler was incredibly influential on Germany, the Soviet Union and a host of other European countries - but not for any good reason.

    The 9/11 attackers were very influential on American foreign policy after 9/11 - again, for only terrible reasons.

    I prefer to judge on best/worst rather then most influential.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    The people who are angry that slavery is illegal just perplex me.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Wrong. The man edged on the south to attack just so he could wage a war on the American people that resulted in thousands of people being killed, starving to death, and being raped in the process. All so he could deny self determination of the states.
    Last edited by Henrin; 03-09-13 at 01:48 PM.

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