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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

  1. #261
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Yes it is. It's called freedom and liberty. What you don't seem to catch on to with this tirade is the lasting implications. No one today in their right mind finds slavery acceptable or wants to bring it back. It is childish to even suggest the notion. What's further, the slave issue was resolved, the Corwin Amendment solved it, no nation was being crushed to end slavery. THe CSA was attacked because a of a tyrant's wish. Read the thread for the evidence, I shall not represent it.
    The Corwin Amendment: "No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." Your solution to the problem of Slavery is an amendment forbidding it's abolition. Wonderful. Moreover no, I'm perfectly willing to smash Southern 'freedom & liberty' because of the truly awful cause they chose to affix to that standard and the terrible results it would have reaped. Not every rebellion is justified merely by being a rebellion.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I'm not quite sure I understand. I think I'd agree with you but I don't really comprehend the inconsistency you are claiming to be there.
    He cannot invent legal rationale out of thin air for his own purpose. He argues essentially that the South had legal rights on the basis that it declared its existence of its legal rights. They don't have to kowtow to the rule and laws of the Republic because they said they don't want to anymore. Why? Unwritten laws of freedom and all that jazz presumably. One would think that the North would reject Southern 'liberties' on this same basis and proclaimed right. He concludes by saying arguments of legality are futile in the face of the rejection of authority. That is all fine, it removes the legal question by substituting it for a trial of ideology and arms. But you can't turn around and then say "But nations traded with the south and thats kind of like recognition" it's as he said, irrelevant.

  3. #263
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    The Constitution is mum on secession or leaving the union. It does tell how new states will be allowed to enter. But I wonder, since seceding is not mention in Article I section 10 the section that state exactly what the states cannot do, perhaps seceding would fall under the tenth amendment. That is one of the powers reserved to the states or the people.

    But you say the SCOTUS ruled secession was illegal, so does that mean even during the civil war the entire south was still considered part of the untion?
    Legally it still was.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  4. #264
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    If you wish to ignore historical evidence that overwhelmingly denies your claim, you've every right, however this doesn't mean you are right.

    Yes, you're claiming that a law was broke, I asked for you to show where it was explicitly laid out. Law does need to be explicit lest you have sophistry exclusively, which is what the SCOTUS engaged in.

    For there to be a "more perfect union" you must be uniting something, what was that something? seperate and sovereign States.
    The States were not allowed to form coalitions with other states or raise armies. Something that is perfect cannot be broken up.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    The States were not allowed to form coalitions with other states or raise armies.
    while they remain members of the union.

    Something that is perfect cannot be broken up.
    Something that is perfect cannot unable to be broken up.

  6. #266
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I already explained it. The problem is you got caught up in term usage and completely shut down.
    You explained nothing. But prove me wrong - in which post was your explaination?
    __________________________________________________ _
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  7. #267
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    The Corwin Amendment: "No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." Your solution to the problem of Slavery is an amendment forbidding it's abolition. Wonderful. Moreover no, I'm perfectly willing to smash Southern 'freedom & liberty' because of the truly awful cause they chose to affix to that standard and the terrible results it would have reaped. Not every rebellion is justified merely by being a rebellion.
    Oh God and dear sweet baby Jesus, read the thread, put your next post into the correct context and than I shall respond. You've jumped in with your smash this and deny that and you've not a clue as to the argument that has been presented.

  8. #268
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    The States were not allowed to form coalitions with other states or raise armies. Something that is perfect cannot be broken up.
    Something that is per.....wha?

    I asked for explicit evidence. You've provided none.

    I will wait...

  9. #269
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Could have? No, No, should have...
    Wouldn't have been possible. That's a myth perpetrated by the apologists of slavery.

    People ask "Why couldn't Lincoln let them go in peace?" Nobody ever asks why the South couldn't come back in peace because everybody knows that they were completely willing to fight. If it wasn't Ft. Sumter, it would have been something else. Lincoln had a vital national security interest in seeing the Union preserved - If Maryland and Delaware followed the other slave states, that would have left Washington completely surrounded by a hostile nation. As it was, the only thing separating DC from the Confederacy was the Potomac.

    Simply put, a peaceful separation was impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  10. #270
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Again, so says the Tyrant
    Just because the south wanted Ft. Sumter didn't make it theirs. It was the property of the United States military, as in, they held the title.

    Should the Union have just abandoned their property rights because South Carolina asked?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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