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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Your missing the point that the CSA denounced the "legality" of what you claim and instituted its own government, created its own legality. That was the entire purpose. The secession was tearing Union's authority away and implimenting its own authority. Any argument of legality is futile if the particpants don't recognize the authority. Also, many nations still traded and did business with the CSA. That there is a form of recognition.
    You cannot have it both ways. Not that I care about the legalism's involved in the Civil War, but you cannot on the one hand argue the legitimacy of the Southern Confederacy on the basis of its mere existence and assertion to legitimacy, and obviate the Union's claims of illicit rebellion on the basis of illicit trade with European powers. It is fantastically inconsistent.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Oh for the love of Christ. Self-determination is not in and of itself the holiest of holy causes. It also matters why and what you are fighting for. If the Founding Fathers had decided to take up their muskets in the name of defending their rights as slave owners from a 'tyrannical' Britain they would have richly deserved to be suppressed. People have advocated for terrible causes with terrible outcomes before, and the Confederacy was just such a case. I don't care what the State Legislature of Virginia or Alabam had to say about secession it was for an immoral cause and would have undermined Republican rule and the strength of America for all time. I'm glad it was crushed, I'll be damned if some plantation politicians and aristocratic state legislators were going to wrench America apart, sap us of our unity and strength, and discredit the notion popular rule.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    You cannot have it both ways. Not that I care about the legalism's involved in the Civil War, but you cannot on the one hand argue the legitimacy of the Southern Confederacy on the basis of its mere existence and assertion to legitimacy, and obviate the Union's claims of illicit rebellion on the basis of illicit trade with European powers. It is fantastically inconsistent.
    Seperate issues under seperate contexts...

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Oh for the love of Christ. Self-determination is not in and of itself the holiest of holy causes. It also matters why and what you are fighting for. If the Founding Fathers had decided to take up their muskets in the name of defending their rights as slave owners from a 'tyrannical' Britain they would have richly deserved to be suppressed. People have advocated for terrible causes with terrible outcomes before, and the Confederacy was just such a case. I don't care what the State Legislature of Virginia or Alabam had to say about secession it was for an immoral cause and would have undermined Republican rule and the strength of America for all time. I'm glad it was crushed, I'll be damned if some plantation politicians and aristocratic state legislators were going to wrench America apart, sap us of our unity and strength, and discredit the notion popular rule.
    Yes it is. It's called freedom and liberty. What you don't seem to catch on to with this tirade is the lasting implications. No one today in their right mind finds slavery acceptable or wants to bring it back. It is childish to even suggest the notion. What's further, the slave issue was resolved, the Corwin Amendment solved it, no nation was being crushed to end slavery. THe CSA was attacked because a of a tyrant's wish. Read the thread for the evidence, I shall not represent it.
    Last edited by ChezC3; 03-11-13 at 11:18 PM.

  5. #255
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    No, that's an absurd analogy. This wasn't an individual flouting the law
    You're right, it was a GROUP of individuals flouting the

    (a law which you've still failed to produce, and can't because there was none)
    I shouldn't need to produce the Constitution. The SCOTUS ruling means that secession is not permitted by the Constitution.

    This is about Sovereign States of a Union no longer recognizing the Federal authority it allowed itself to be subject to. The authority, again, is given and had from the consent of the governed. When elected representives of any given state have their populations approval to disjoin, than that consent is revoked and any "legality" is null and void.
    The US isn't a confederation of states, that's why the Articles were repealed. It started that way but people realized that was stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    well I like that Lincoln waged a war that ultimately ended slavery.... that sort of tyranny should be ended by any means necessary.

    I dislike that he waged a war to keep the union whole.... that sort of tyranny should not be allowed to exist.

    had he went to war and ended slavery, but allowed the South to enjoy their self determination by allowing the CSA to exist and continue, I would be more pleased with him.

    he is both a slayer of tyranny, and a tyrant....there's something for everyone to like about him, and dislike.
    He did not "go to war." The South attacked first.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    You cannot have it both ways. Not that I care about the legalism's involved in the Civil War, but you cannot on the one hand argue the legitimacy of the Southern Confederacy on the basis of its mere existence and assertion to legitimacy, and obviate the Union's claims of illicit rebellion on the basis of illicit trade with European powers. It is fantastically inconsistent.
    I'm not quite sure I understand. I think I'd agree with you but I don't really comprehend the inconsistency you are claiming to be there.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Oh for the love of Christ. Self-determination is not in and of itself the holiest of holy causes. It also matters why and what you are fighting for. If the Founding Fathers had decided to take up their muskets in the name of defending their rights as slave owners from a 'tyrannical' Britain they would have richly deserved to be suppressed. People have advocated for terrible causes with terrible outcomes before, and the Confederacy was just such a case. I don't care what the State Legislature of Virginia or Alabam had to say about secession it was for an immoral cause and would have undermined Republican rule and the strength of America for all time. I'm glad it was crushed, I'll be damned if some plantation politicians and aristocratic state legislators were going to wrench America apart, sap us of our unity and strength, and discredit the notion popular rule.
    I think the Slavic nationalism at the end of the 20th century is a good example of this. Yugoslavia was divided so the different little ethnic groups could determine their own fate, and then they started killing each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    You're right, it was a GROUP of individuals flouting the


    I shouldn't need to produce the Constitution. The SCOTUS ruling means that secession is not permitted by the Constitution.



    The US isn't a confederation of states, that's why the Articles were repealed. It started that way but people realized that was stupid.
    The Constitution is mum on secession or leaving the union. It does tell how new states will be allowed to enter. But I wonder, since seceding is not mention in Article I section 10 the section that state exactly what the states cannot do, perhaps seceding would fall under the tenth amendment. That is one of the powers reserved to the states or the people.

    But you say the SCOTUS ruled secession was illegal, so does that mean even during the civil war the entire south was still considered part of the untion?
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    You're right, it was a GROUP of individuals flouting the


    I shouldn't need to produce the Constitution. The SCOTUS ruling means that secession is not permitted by the Constitution.




    The US isn't a confederation of states, that's why the Articles were repealed. It started that way but people realized that was stupid.
    If you wish to ignore historical evidence that overwhelmingly denies your claim, you've every right, however this doesn't mean you are right.

    Yes, you're claiming that a law was broke, I asked for you to show where it was explicitly laid out. Law does need to be explicit lest you have sophistry exclusively, which is what the SCOTUS engaged in.

    For there to be a "more perfect union" you must be uniting something, what was that something? seperate and sovereign States.

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