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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You certainly are not helping in that regard as you seem loathe to explain where you are getting these ideas you cite.
    I already explained it. The problem is you got caught up in term usage and completely shut down.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Sure. Lincoln wasn't dumb.



    I was pointing out that belligerency is not the same as actual recognition. Therefore they had no legal territorial rights on both Constitutional counts and diplomatic counts.
    Your missing the point that the CSA denounced the "legality" of what you claim and instituted its own government, created its own legality. That was the entire purpose. The secession was tearing Union's authority away and implimenting its own authority. Any argument of legality is futile if the particpants don't recognize the authority. Also, many nations still traded and did business with the CSA. That there is a form of recognition.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Was Fort Sumter federal or state territory? If so, why did it have a federal fort smack in the middle of it?

    Your argument would then lay all territory the CSA claimed as "federal". You then would fail to regonize the South's entire premise.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Your missing the point that the CSA denounced the "legality" of what you claim and instituted its own government, created its own legality. That was the entire purpose. The secession was tearing Union's authority away and implimenting its own authority. Any argument of legality is futile if the particpants don't recognize the authority. Also, many nations still traded and did business with the CSA. That there is a form of recognition.
    That's an absurd position to take. That's like saying because a serial killer doesn't recognize state murder laws as legal then he did nothing wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    You're right. The Confederates should never have attacked the Union after they split off.
    The Yanks should have left when they were told to...

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Your argument would then lay all territory the CSA claimed as "federal". You then would fail to regonize the South's entire premise.
    I don't actually think that. Most of the territory belonged to States of the Union, but not to any other government. The fort was actually directly federal property. A better comparison would be American Samoa rather than any state-held territory.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    The Yanks should have left when they were told to...
    If I was President and a fort in my possession was attacked, and the soldiers inside whose lives I had a duty to protect, I'd certainly retaliate with a punitive expedition at the very least, secession aside. The Confederates really had some gall.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    That's an absurd position to take. That's like saying because a serial killer doesn't recognize state murder laws as legal then he did nothing wrong.
    No, that's an absurd analogy. This wasn't an individual flouting the law, (a law which you've still failed to produce, and can't because there was none) This is about Sovereign States of a Union no longer recognizing the Federal authority it allowed itself to be subject to. The authority, again, is given and had from the consent of the governed. When elected representives of any given state have their populations approval to disjoin, than that consent is revoked and any "legality" is null and void.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    If I was President and a fort in my possession was attacked, and the soldiers inside whose lives I had a duty to protect, I'd certainly retaliate with a punitive expedition at the very least, secession aside. The Confederates really had some gall.
    Right, it was all "federal" land. Eminent Domain was around long before the War of Aggression. To explain, eminant domain by its very premise denies anyone true property rights. The best any of us can hope for is exclusive rights of use. So long as the Federal government (or any other) doesn't want it.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    well I like that Lincoln waged a war that ultimately ended slavery.... that sort of tyranny should be ended by any means necessary.

    I dislike that he waged a war to keep the union whole.... that sort of tyranny should not be allowed to exist.

    had he went to war and ended slavery, but allowed the South to enjoy their self determination by allowing the CSA to exist and continue, I would be more pleased with him.

    he is both a slayer of tyranny, and a tyrant....there's something for everyone to like about him, and dislike.

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