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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Um, the Emancipation Proclamation? Thirteenth Amendment?
    The Emancipation Proclamation was empty and hollow rhetoric. Don't tell me that you can't see that.

    I guess you think Bush "liberated" Arabs too?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    The Emancipation Proclamation was empty and hollow rhetoric. Don't tell me that you can't see that.

    I guess you think Bush "liberated" Arabs too?
    The Emancipation Proclamation was an absolutely crucial pivot point in the American Civil War. That it only applied to Confederate States and rebels therein was irrelevant then and is irrelevant today. No longer was the war merely about the restoring the Union and subjugating the rebel states, it became irrevocably about abolishing slavery in way or another. Everyone knew that once the Emancipation Proclamation was passed abolitionism was in the ascendancy and the War could not end without the demise of slavery being made clear. This fact not only fired Northern moral and prompted a huge disgorgement of fundraising for the war effort, it effectively annihilated Southern political support in Europe by sending both the liberal elite and the working proletariat into the streets and newspapers railing against Confederate Slavepower. The notes and journals of prominent European leaders from Lord Russell to Napoleon III that the Emancipation Proclamation went further to kill Southern hopes for intervention than anything else.

    Because despite what some apologists try and argue today, the world was generally unconcerned with Southern 'rights' arguments. What they say was the enslavement of millions and the battle between an aristocratic, slave power south in battle against an immigrant friendly, free-man, republican North.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    The Emancipation Proclamation was an absolutely crucial pivot point in the American Civil War. That it only applied to Confederate States and rebels therein was irrelevant then and is irrelevant today. No longer was the war merely about the restoring the Union and subjugating the rebel states, it became irrevocably about abolishing slavery in way or another. Everyone knew that once the Emancipation Proclamation was passed abolitionism was in the ascendancy and the War could not end without the demise of slavery being made clear. This fact not only fired Northern moral and prompted a huge disgorgement of fundraising for the war effort, it effectively annihilated Southern political support in Europe by sending both the liberal elite and the working proletariat into the streets and newspapers railing against Confederate Slavepower. The notes and journals of prominent European leaders from Lord Russell to Napoleon III that the Emancipation Proclamation went further to kill Southern hopes for intervention than anything else.

    Because despite what some apologists try and argue today, the world was generally unconcerned with Southern 'rights' arguments. What they say was the enslavement of millions and the battle between an aristocratic, slave power south in battle against an immigrant friendly, free-man, republican North.
    The world was unconcerned with Southern rights, but they were also equally unconcerned with the slavery going on in the colonies. England fought us because they needed money and imperialistic power. France fought England because they have been fighting England directly and by proxy for centuries.

    And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    The world was unconcerned with Southern rights, but they were also equally unconcerned with the slavery going on in the colonies. England fought us because they needed money and imperialistic power. France fought England because they have been fighting England directly and by proxy for centuries.

    And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.
    That is just factually untrue. The issue of slavery was paramount in the discussion of what the approach should be to the conflict in the United States. There were massive strikes and brutal political duels over the issue of slavery and the war, it was an extremely prominent part of the discussion.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why don't you just admit you're not interested in thinking about the topic?
    You certainly are not helping in that regard as you seem loathe to explain where you are getting these ideas you cite.
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    I think another crucial ingredient people seem to miss when trying to demonize the Southern States and deify Lincoln and the North was the fact that it was the Southern states that led the charge to end the slave trade long before the Civil War came about. Virginia being the first. The expansion of slavery into new territory would have, or should I say could have only been possible by relocating existing slaves to new territory as the importation of slaves was made outlaw.

    This dispersement would have actually been a crucial step toward eventual abolition. Meanwhile it would have eased the conditions of the slaves expotentially. The overpopulation and the burdens of cost to properly feed and house slaves would have been eased allowing for better conditions. The lack of concentration of slave-holders to abolitionists would have also significantly decreased thereby deluting the political power of slave-holders which in turn would have eventully brought about a peaceful resolution and end to the issue of slavery.

    Now, as to the true reason of the War of Aggression. When 13 colonies each sovereign and independant joined together in unison vanquishing their overlord's across the pond, they devised a government. A union which promoted the dignity and individualality of their respective sovereign States. They voluntarily joined in Union. They weren't held to do so by gunpoint. They knew that their common interests could best be pursued if indivdually these sovereign and free States united. There is no historical evidence to be had to the contrary of this, the Union wasn't formed and divided into sections and regions. It was individual States who, I'll say again VOLUNTARILY joined together.

    If anyone had told them, or if they at any time had the slightest idea that this bond would be permanent and inseperable, they would have never entered into contract.

    History shows that the people at the time of our nation's founding understood and viewed the seperate states as independant and sovereign nations unto themselves. Revisionist history from self serving and power mad men have convinced anyone who'd think different to be mistaken.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Revisionist history from self serving and power mad men have convinced anyone who'd think different to be mistaken.
    With all due respect, if anyone is "revising" history, it's those who believe that the Union could be split without war.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    This dispersement would have actually been a crucial step toward eventual abolition.
    Opening new markets doesn't mean your product is going away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Opening new markets doesn't mean your product is going away.
    Normally, I might agree with you. The political climate at the time however would have deluted the concentration in the South, weakening the political clout and the sparse population into the new territories which allowed it (very crucial in remembering this, no one says the new territories would have wanted slavery within their borders) would have given them no real stranglehold over the political power. Thereby leading to an eventual abolition.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    With all due respect, if anyone is "revising" history, it's those who believe that the Union could be split without war.
    Could have? No, No, should have...

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