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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I feel a slavery apologist thread coming along... It's always fun to watch Libertarians downplay the importance of slavery to the civil war. Lol "social and economic differences". Yeah and WWII was really about German anger towards the economy. The annihilation of Jews was just ... you know... a side issue.
    "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." -Lincoln

    Slavery is probably the most atrocious part of our history, and Lincoln did help put it to the end, but it was not his sole motivation for the war he fought. I see him as neither a hero or a villain.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    For Lincoln I would have included the creation of a coalition that, for all intents and purposes, lasted until the 1930s.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    In response to Lincoln challenging the state's rights to secede, in his doing this (legal experts correct me if I am wrong) doesn't it create a legal precedent that can be used in the future if a state decides to secede from the union?
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    i was watching the history on jesse james,and watching what the union did to missouri,its no surprise the south still hates lincoln.missouri was a state mostly in support of the union,but with a few countries in extreme support of the confederacy.the union would either imprison or execute anyone showing any sympathies for the confederacy.sad because my great great great grandfather was from misouri and served the confederacy,under my same family tree his brothers were all imprisoned for relations to a confederate supporter.2 of them died in prison and the other 3 were let go after the war ended.


    how can someone be proud of an administration that ended civil liberties and free speech for a cause.lincoln may have fought a good fight but the means didnt justify the ends.he could have found a more peaceful solution than he did.
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    In response to Lincoln challenging the state's rights to secede, in his doing this (legal experts correct me if I am wrong) doesn't it create a legal precedent that can be used in the future if a state decides to secede from the union?
    Yes, but its a moot point anyway. If a state wants to secede and does so, it's not going to be swayed by any legal argument made by the nation from which it's seceeded. Even back then strong legal arguments were made that it was not legal, but why would the new nation (as they saw themselves) submit to U.S. law or mandate? The very act of secession made them unbound to US law (of course the US disagreed).

    Basically, the decision comes down to the nation from which the state seceeded -- either let it happen or send in the troops to prevent it from happening. Lincoln, of course, chose the latter and set that as the precedent.

    In the end, the question of the legality of secession only mattered (or matters) in retrospect. The south fought the war under the notion that they were a separate nation and the north did so believing secession was not possible in the first place. Ironically, when it came time for reconstruction, each side claimed the exact opposite! This allowed the north to place the south under provisional military rule and set requirements for "re-entry" into the union. The south, meanwhile, said that if they had never left the union in the first place then "re-entry" was not necessary. The north won the argument; they had the troops to enforce their mandates.
    Last edited by other; 03-13-12 at 08:51 PM.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Say what you will about Lincoln, I believe the man had a good heart when it came to the slavery issue, he was instrumental in passing the 13th amendment at a time when the civil war was all but won. He did this because he thought it was the right thing to do.


    But the final version of the Thirteenth Amendment--the one ending slavery--has an interesting story of its own. Passed during the Civil War years, when southern congressional representatives were not present for debate, one would think today that it must have easily passed both the House of Representatives and the Senate. Not true. As a matter of fact, although passed in April 1864 by the Senate, with a vote of 38 to 6, the required two-thirds majority was defeated in the House of Representatives by a vote of 93 to 65. Abolishing slavery was almost exclusively a Republican party effort--only four Democrats voted for it.

    It was then that President Abraham Lincoln took an active role in pushing it through congress. He insisted that the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment be added to the Republican party platform for the upcoming presidential elections. He used all of his political skill and influence to convince additional democrats to support the amendments' passage. His efforts finally met with success, when the House passed the bill in January 1865 with a vote of 119-56. Finally, Lincoln supported those congressmen that insisted southern state legislatures must adopt the Thirteenth Amendment before their states would be allowed to return with full rights to Congress.

    "The fact that Lincoln had difficulty in gaining passage of the amendment towards the closing months of the war and after his Emancipation Proclamation had been in effect 12 full months, is illustrative. There was still a reasonably large body of the northern people, or at least their elected representatives, that were either indifferent towards, or directly opposed to, freeing the slaves."


    Great American History Thirteenth Amendment-

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    more than 2 million people were killed in the Civil War. many sources estimate a much smaller number, the figure of more than 2 million was determined by obtaining the names and other identity information of everyone killed, and counting them, it was not an estimate. The southerners were often drafted, and desertion was met with the death penalty. the northerners chose to accept the risk of death, believing that the cause was worth more than their lives. No one was drafted in the north, the northern soldiers all enlisted. Lincoln granted a blanket pardon to all deserters, any soldier from the north could leave at any time if they came to the conclusion that the cause wasn't worth their life, without penalty, any southerner was pardoned for desertion too, too, if they had fled to the north successfully. This blanket pardon was a totally unprecedented act that no President nor Prince had ever done in any war before or since, and totally worthy of inclusion in the new movie "Lincoln", although I doubt that the fictionalized movie "Lincoln" mentioned it at all.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    Here's one dissenter. *raises hand*

    His importance is hard to deny, but I'm no fan of Lincoln.
    Hating Lincoln for the various events surrounding the Civil War was the cause celebre in right libertarian circles a decade ago. Some seem to have switched their hatred and loathing to FDR in the last few years. I suspect the more racially conservative among them still has a special place in their cold hearts for Lincoln while the more cerebral save most of their loathing for Roosevelt.
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    He was a despot and a tyrant. Sic semper tyrannis

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    He was a despot and a tyrant. Sic semper tyrannis
    How so? Because he suspended habeas corpus during a time of rebellion?

    Presidents have done worse.

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