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Thread: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

  1. #121
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post

    So where is your verifiable proof that owners have the rights you claim they do?
    Ownership is the exclusive right to use and control a particular thing.
    Do you have exclusive right to control access to your home haymarket?
    How about your person?

    Would you agree that both of those are true? If you explore ownership you will find it all fits under this same umbrella. Even in collective societies those outside of that group can not use that property. However, in this case you wish to say there is a weird exception to the rule where the owner of the property does not have control of access, but instead some other person that has no claim of ownership can enter his property against his will. Tell me, how does property work in nature? Does someone have to show aggression towards the owner to use the property against his will? The answer is yes, and its really no different with this law here, or even in society as a whole. So tell me Haymarket, how is aggression towards property justified? How is this law not a violation of property rights? It's clearly a law that goes against the very nature of how property works, so there is little doubt its a violation of property rights.
    Last edited by Henrin; 03-09-13 at 06:52 PM.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    The whole idea that eventually the South would have gotten rid of slavery is a myth that's been perpetuated by apologists for years. The textile mills would have gone South to be closer to the cotton (as they eventually did). Slaves would have represented a ready and cheap labor source for them, and the system would be perpetuated. Too many people had too much property in slaves -- in fact, slaves represented the largest factor in economic growth in the South.



    In fact, slaves represented about half of ALL the wealth of the South (same source as above, table 4). There's no way that kind of capital investment just goes away.

    What made things worse for the black people in the South was ending Reconstruction, which happened in 1877 as part of the bargain that put Rutherford Hayes in the White House. In other words, ENDING the occupation is what made it worse.
    Silliness. Do you not think the countries I'm referring to where not dependent on their slaves? How do you think they were able to deal with that problem, but the south would have never been able to do so? You're just assuming that the south had something holding them back that no one else had, but that is simply not true.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    WTF? Are you actually claiming there was no campaign to go across the south doing what I said? Really?
    Yes, massacres and rape were not at all a common occurrence in the Union campaign in the South, nor in the Southern campaigns in the North. It is what makes incidents like Fort Pillow and the Lawrence Massacre so noteworthy. They were rare. So to reiterate once again, no it did not really occur. Destruction of property and desolation of farmland certainly, but not massacre and rapine.

  4. #124
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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Keep in context of the conversation. You said, secession wasn't legal, if it isn't legal than there must be a law that would be broke, no? (I don't recall seeing one in this regard but I was playing along for your benefit)
    How about secession being an act of rebellion?


    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    No we are a Union of States,or "UNITED STATES", get it? not states of a Union. That was the way it was determined at the beginning, the tyrant he's the one who put that mishegoss in your head.

    He freed slaves while enslaving a nation.
    Before the Constitution there was the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. After the failures of the Articles of Confederation were apparent, the Constitution was ordained in order "to form a more perfect Union". We are indissoluble.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    How about secession being an act of rebellion?
    It all goes back to consent of the governed. Once that is revoked any act which forces compliance from the unwilling is an act of tyranny.




    Before the Constitution there was the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. After the failures of the Articles of Confederation were apparent, the Constitution was ordained in order "to form a more perfect Union". We are indissoluble.
    Well, if you want to go there, then you must be aware that the Constitution was brought about through the usurpation of power, right? The delegates having only the authority to amend the Articles of Confederation and not having any license whatsoever to completely disgard the Articles and replace them with the Constitution. You probably also know that a good majority of the delegates were delayed and absent when this usurpation of power took place. The Constitution already set into motion by that Napoleon without a spine, Hamilton and his tyrannical dogs. The delegates arriving already seeing that things were set in motion and having little ability to stop or protest the actions that had been set to motion. None of them however had the consent or the authority of the populations they came to represent, rather having to go back and convince the most prominant that their actions where what was in their best interests.

    Since this usurpation took place, if there is any historical evidence of what you claim the argument of what the AoC says is irrelevant.

    Further, in order for there to be a "more perfect Union" there has to be parts seperate to conjoin into a Union. States sovereign, united in purpose, by CHOICE.

    When those purposes no longer align, like many, quotes from the founders have shown, seperation isn't only allowable, but prefered.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Slaves and women didn't give consent to be governed by the confederate tyrant rebels. We freed them from despotic rule.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Webb View Post
    Does everyone agree?
    Nope. Lincoln was deified by the Union during and after the Civil War, so much that even today, any unkind word about him is met with harsh criticism, and bitter accusations of racism. I'm honestly not impressed with him one bit, and don't see the appeal of his presidency.

    How long was Killing Lincoln by Bill O'Reilly the New York Times best-seller? It's still in the no. 2 position right now.
    Who cares? O'Reilly is just another windbag shill making a buck.

    I can't find anyone that's critical of Honest Abe. I guess this is a non-subject to everyone. I apologize again, I'm sorry.
    Lincoln was an asshole who chose the Union over the People. His poor mishandling of the South can still be felt today.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Nope. Lincoln was deified by the Union during and after the Civil War, so much that even today, any unkind word about him is met with harsh criticism, and bitter accusations of racism. I'm honestly not impressed with him one bit, and don't see the appeal of his presidency.


    Who cares? O'Reilly is just another windbag shill making a buck.



    Lincoln was an asshole who chose the Union over the People. His poor mishandling of the South can still be felt today.
    Defending the right to own slaves is a good indicator of racism.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Lincoln was different from most modern day politicians in that he possessed a great deal of moral courage. He wasn't thrilled to become president and actually had a foreboding feeling from time to time about it, but did it out of a sense of duty. He was relatively ugly, gangly, looked awkward on a horse, wore ill fitting clothes, and had a high pitched voice. His life had many more failures than most of us and he had contemplated suicide more than once. I think we love him, or at least I do, because he could accomplish so much good with such little worldly material to work with. He had the resolve to fight and win our terrible Civil War on his terms, both ending slavery and keeping the union together, and his propensity to forgive his enemies, if he hadn't been assassinated, probably would have provided a much better outcome for America's future race relations. The old saying "Every generation gets the president they deserve" was apt for his time, as our country was ready for a change and deserved his leadership for the sacrifices they were willing to make. I can't think of a better human being.

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    Re: Abraham Lincoln - Right or Wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    Defending the right to own slaves is a good indicator of racism.
    and moments later, Pavlov's dogs rush in to kill any statement not loaded down with adoration and lovey dovey bull**** about Lincoln by defaulting to the tired old "omg racism", because they have no other argument in their arsenal.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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