View Poll Results: Are Homosexuals oppressed in America?

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  • Yes, homosexuals are oppressed in America.

    53 29.61%
  • No, homosexuals are not oppressed in America

    125 69.83%
  • I don't know

    1 0.56%
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Thread: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

  1. #111
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I speak not from reading but from experience. Employers can claim performance issues, produce reams of documentation supporting their claim. They have corporate lawyers, you have a lawyer you must pay out of pocket while your unemployed. And what does the lawyer say? In most cases you will not win, you have no documentation to back up your claim and even if you could win, you will go broke before ever getting it before a judge. It happens all the time... especially where the company who fired you is large and has money. The best you can get is maybe a little lost pay and unused vacation time pay.

    The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove the firing is sexual orientation or age related. Not easy to do, not easy to prove unless your lawyers is really good and works pro bono. Good luck with that.
    As I said in the last post, such claims can be hard to prove. As I also said in the last post, that doesn't mean that there aren't legal protections in place for people fired by reason of race/gender. By contrast, there are no such legal protections in place for gay people. Again, this puts them in the same position, with respect to the law (which, as you'll recall, is the only issue I'm talking about) as black people were prior to the enactment of the Civil Rights Act.

    Put another way, there are tons of cases on the books involving (e.g.) a black person or a woman winning all kinds of money due to having been terminated/not hired/not promoted for reasons of race/gender due to provisions of federal law. By contrast there aren't any such cases, and in fact there currently cannot be any such cases, with respect to gay people fired for being gay, because they have no such legal protections under federal law.

  2. #112
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    But then definition #2 could be applied to pretty much anyone in America, including Christians, given any plausible reason.
    Not really. The degree is clearly much larger for homosexuals than Chrisitans. There is next to no stigma attached to being Christian. CHristians can marry and are not denied employment or service like can happen to homosexuals.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #113
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You agree that LBGT are oppressed at the same level as say 1966-1968 blacks in Atlanta? Or Tennessee?
    Is the same level required? We have seen homosexuals killed and beaten, would they be dismissed if the level is not exactly the same?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #114
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Since this thread was (I believe) initiated because of this post, I feel the need to weigh in on this issue.

    I don't deny that homosexuals are treated unfairly by many people in our society, especially so by Christians who ought to know better. I also don't deny that some homosexuals, especially young ones, are actively persecuted by Christians, who again should know better.

    None of this unfair treatment is a matter of law, and neither is the persecution. And I deny that it is widespread. Attitudes certainly still have to change when it comes to seeing homosexuals as children of God worthy of respect and proper treatment. It is a poverty that Christians would still not heed Jesus' call to first remove the plank in our own eyes before removing the mote in our neighbors eyes. As a Catholic, I know that I am just as culpable for my own sin as a homosexual is for his/hers.

    I believe that words have meaning, and for any communication to be possible, we have to have strict rules regarding what words mean. And to me, if the systematic genocide of Jews in WWII and political opposition to SSM in the U.S. are both oppression, then the word no longer has any meaning.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

  5. #115
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    Since this thread was (I believe) initiated because of this post, I feel the need to weigh in on this issue.

    I don't deny that homosexuals are treated unfairly by many people in our society, especially so by Christians who ought to know better. I also don't deny that some homosexuals, especially young ones, are actively persecuted by Christians, who again should know better.

    None of this unfair treatment is a matter of law, and neither is the persecution. And I deny that it is widespread. Attitudes certainly still have to change when it comes to seeing homosexuals as children of God worthy of respect and proper treatment. It is a poverty that Christians would still not heed Jesus' call to first remove the plank in our own eyes before removing the mote in our neighbors eyes. As a Catholic, I know that I am just as culpable for my own sin as a homosexual is for his/hers.

    I believe that words have meaning, and for any communication to be possible, we have to have strict rules regarding what words mean. And to me, if the systematic genocide of Jews in WWII and political opposition to SSM in the U.S. are both oppression, then the word no longer has any meaning.

    It is a matter of law. In a couple of important ways. I've commented on that extensively, so take a look back over the last couple of pages.

  6. #116
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    Since this thread was (I believe) initiated because of this post, I feel the need to weigh in on this issue.

    I don't deny that homosexuals are treated unfairly by many people in our society, especially so by Christians who ought to know better. I also don't deny that some homosexuals, especially young ones, are actively persecuted by Christians, who again should know better.

    None of this unfair treatment is a matter of law, and neither is the persecution. And I deny that it is widespread. Attitudes certainly still have to change when it comes to seeing homosexuals as children of God worthy of respect and proper treatment. It is a poverty that Christians would still not heed Jesus' call to first remove the plank in our own eyes before removing the mote in our neighbors eyes. As a Catholic, I know that I am just as culpable for my own sin as a homosexual is for his/hers.

    I believe that words have meaning, and for any communication to be possible, we have to have strict rules regarding what words mean. And to me, if the systematic genocide of Jews in WWII and political opposition to SSM in the U.S. are both oppression, then the word no longer has any meaning.
    Both can be oppression, but genocide is another word that applies to jews and not homosexuals, . . . here. Perhaps the problem is not elevating homosexuals to oppression, but limiting the holocost to mere opression.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Alright, let's try a different tack. Put yourself in their shoes, Wake (if you are even capable of having any empathy).

    Imagine a world run by gay people, where straights are a minority, say 5-8% of the population. You are looked down upon because your sexual proclitivities and orientation are in direct contradiction to the morals of the majority. You are viewed as sinful, disgusting, and evil because of who you are. You are not capable of marrying the person you love because the majority has deemed that providing such a legal privilege to you would be "legitimizing and validating your disgusting nature/behavior and lifestyle," despite the fact that who you choose to love and spend the rest of your life with is none of their damn business. You face employment and housing discrimination, and all the while people on the street give you nasty looks for holding hands with your significant other. You cannot visit your loved one in the hospital when she is sick, because you are not considered to be next of kin. If you die, your life insurance policy will not be passed on to your loved ones or your children, if society even allows to have children.

    Would you deny that you are being oppressed, or no?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-12-12 at 05:28 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Put yourself in their shoes, Wake (if you are even capable of having any empathy).
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...and-light.html

    I already have. That's why I no longer oppose SSM.

  9. #119
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Both can be oppression, but genocide is another word that applies to jews and not homosexuals, . . . here. Perhaps the problem is not elevating homosexuals to oppression, but limiting the holocost to mere opression.
    The Holocaust is both oppression and genocide. It started with Nazis systematically oppressing Jews, preventing them in law from doing many things other citizens had the right to do. I should have been more specific and parsed the Holocaust out more to make sure my point was understood.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    Since this thread was (I believe) initiated because of this post, I feel the need to weigh in on this issue.

    I don't deny that homosexuals are treated unfairly by many people in our society, especially so by Christians who ought to know better. I also don't deny that some homosexuals, especially young ones, are actively persecuted by Christians, who again should know better.

    None of this unfair treatment is a matter of law, and neither is the persecution. And I deny that it is widespread. Attitudes certainly still have to change when it comes to seeing homosexuals as children of God worthy of respect and proper treatment. It is a poverty that Christians would still not heed Jesus' call to first remove the plank in our own eyes before removing the mote in our neighbors eyes. As a Catholic, I know that I am just as culpable for my own sin as a homosexual is for his/hers.
    It is a matter of law. What in the world do you think DOMA is? How about laws preventing gays from adopting? Moreover, oppression does not have to be legal and institutional in nature. It can exist on a societal level. I provided an above example where I said that I believe that hardcore evangelical Christians are oppressed on certain college campuses, due to social ostracism and alienation. That is a form of oppression that is not legitimized by rules or laws, but exists nonetheless.

    If oppressive laws don't exist, oppressive social norms certainly can.

    I believe that words have meaning, and for any communication to be possible, we have to have strict rules regarding what words mean. And to me, if the systematic genocide of Jews in WWII and political opposition to SSM in the U.S. are both oppression, then the word no longer has any meaning.
    I completely disagree. Just because definitions are broad does not make them meaningless. Think of the words "fighting" or "combat." They still retain their meaning, despite the fact that they can equally apply to nations engaged in full-fledged total war, or two individuals participating in a wrestling match.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-12-12 at 05:33 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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