View Poll Results: Are Homosexuals oppressed in America?

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  • Yes, homosexuals are oppressed in America.

    53 29.61%
  • No, homosexuals are not oppressed in America

    125 69.83%
  • I don't know

    1 0.56%
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Thread: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

  1. #101
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    What exactly did they go through 20 years ago? To be truthful from what I've seen, I don't think gays today have gone through half of what I've had to go through as a socially conservative Christian (especially when I was opposed to SSM).
    From what I can relate from my mother:

    when she came out she lost all of her friends, she was forced from her church and no other church in the community would allow her to join or attend, she was fired from her job. She was asked to leave some stores. She was denied a lease. She was denied a car loan. She eventually had to leave her hometown and move to a big city so that she could live in relative anonymity. This is just what I know of, I also know there are things she has not told me.
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It is dissimilar in the levels, quantity and prevalence of violence, ie., the degrees I've been talking about.
    I agree that the levels are different re: violence. But violence against black people wasn't legal back in the 60's either, it was just acceptable. With respect to the substantive legal and political issues, there are more similarities between the civil rights movement and modern gay rights as an issue than there are differences.

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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    What exactly did they go through 20 years ago? To be truthful from what I've seen, I don't think gays today have gone through half of what I've had to go through as a socially conservative Christian (especially when I was opposed to SSM).

    Then you haven't been paying attention. No one has attempted to string you up and beat you to death with rocks (a la Matthew Shepherd). No one has attempted to prevent you from joining the military. No one has been able to legally fire you for being Christian. I've read cases involving 12-13 year old kids being driven to clinical depression and suicide by being mercilessly teased for their sexuality while school authorities ignored the problem and told the victim they were asking for trouble by being out. That doesn't happen to evangelical Christians. This is just the tip of the iceberg, by the way.

  4. #104
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I agree that the levels are different re: violence. But violence against black people wasn't legal back in the 60's either, it was just acceptable. With respect to the substantive legal and political issues, there are more similarities between the civil rights movement and modern gay rights as an issue than there are differences.
    I can agree to political issues... legal? No - the Jim Crow Laws were so prevalent. Accommodation has been made on civil unions and in some states "marriage", which eases issues around hospital visits, death and dying, but all that could have legally been done without a civil union or "marriage" by other legal means. Certainly more difficult that way but do able.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  5. #105
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    From what I can relate from my mother:

    when she came out she lost all of her friends, she was forced from her church and no other church in the community would allow her to join or attend, she was fired from her job. She was asked to leave some stores. She was denied a lease. She was denied a car loan. She eventually had to leave her hometown and move to a big city so that she could live in relative anonymity. This is just what I know of, I also know there are things she has not told me.
    I know many gays who suffered the same indignities.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I can agree to political issues... legal? No - the Jim Crow Laws were so prevalent. Accommodation has been made on civil unions and in some states "marriage", which eases issues around hospital visits, death and dying, but all that could have legally been done without a civil union or "marriage" by other legal means. Certainly more difficult that way but do able.
    I'm mostly not talking about the marriage issue (although as I mentioned, it directly parallels the anti-miscegenation debate so there's definitely a legal argument there as well). As I've said several times now, it's perfectly legal in about half the country for employers to refuse employment and/or fire people for their sexual orientation. This is a level of legal discrimination that no one in this country has experienced since the civil rights act was passed.

  7. #107
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I'm mostly not talking about the marriage issue (although as I mentioned, it directly parallels the anti-miscegenation debate so there's definitely a legal argument there as well). As I've said several times now, it's perfectly legal in about half the country for employers to refuse employment and/or fire people for their sexual orientation. This is a level of legal discrimination that no one in this country has experienced since the civil rights act was passed.
    Employees who are non-unionized can be fired for any reason - gay or not gay. Nothing so far has assuaged my view that a comparison between LGBT "oppression" and the civil rights movement is anything but ridiculous. Now that I've stated that 3 times I don't feel like stating it a 4th time. No one seems to have any new information or better arguments so...
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Employees who are non-unionized can be fired for any reason - gay or not gay.
    Not true. If a firing is racially or gender motivated (also, to a lesser extent, age related) there are federal legal protections that kick in that will allow the employee to sue (many or possibly all states have similar state-level protections). Granted this is sometimes hard to prove, and employers engaging in such actions will absolutely attempt to hide behind "at will" employment contracts; but the point is that there are federal legal provisions in place that prevent discriminatory hiring/firing practices related to race and gender, but absolutely no such provision as related to sexual orientation. At will employment was equally in place in the 50's. That doesn't mean that black people weren't being oppressed by unfair hiring practices, or that the Civil Rights Act didn't significantly improve their rights regarding employment.

  9. #109
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Employees who are non-unionized can be fired for any reason - gay or not gay. Nothing so far has assuaged my view that a comparison between LGBT "oppression" and the civil rights movement is anything but ridiculous.
    LGBT people have certainly not experienced oppression at the levels of blacks by any stretch of the imagination, but there are still enough similarities in their experiences to denote a completely reasonable comparison. Both groups have faced discrimination in the workplace, the housing market and so on. Both groups have faced discrimination from the government in terms of marriage and adoption. Both groups have faced socially accepted cruel violence. Both groups have been alienated by large sects of society. And there are even more similarities.

    In the end, blacks and LGBT people have faced systemic oppression (though at varying levels) because of undue meaning society has placed upon one of their attributes. The comparison is far from ridiculous.

    Now that I've stated that 3 times I don't feel like stating it a 4th time. No one seems to have any new information or better arguments so...
    Nobody's forcing you to repeat yourself.

  10. #110
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    Re: Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Not true. If a firing is racially or gender motivated (also, to a lesser extent, age related) there are federal legal protections that kick in that will allow the employee to sue (many or possibly all states have similar state-level protections). Granted this is sometimes hard to prove, and employers engaging in such actions will absolutely attempt to hide behind "at will" employment contracts; but the point is that there are federal legal provisions in place that prevent discriminatory hiring/firing practices related to race and gender, but absolutely no such provision as related to sexual orientation. At will employment was equally in place in the 50's. That doesn't mean that black people weren't being oppressed by unfair hiring practices, or that the Civil Rights Act didn't significantly improve their rights regarding employment.
    I speak not from reading but from experience. Employers can claim performance issues, produce reams of documentation supporting their claim. They have corporate lawyers, you have a lawyer you must pay out of pocket while your unemployed. And what does the lawyer say? In most cases you will not win, you have no documentation to back up your claim and even if you could win, you will go broke before ever getting it before a judge. It happens all the time... especially where the company who fired you is large and has money. The best you can get is maybe a little lost pay and unused vacation time pay.

    The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove the firing is sexual orientation or age related. Not easy to do, not easy to prove unless your lawyers is really good and works pro bono. Good luck with that.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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