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Right to die

Right to die

  • People have no right to die under any circumstance

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    53
They are not always given all the information. Health care workers can be just as stubbornly set in their beliefs, particularly if they hope that they can make a person better despite the odds being against it.

In these situations they are told the facts as known. Health care workers do not tell people with a 10% odds of survival to not worry, they will be healed.
 
We shouldn't help because it is our professional standard to save life, not end it. As I said, passive measures are okay with me if people have stated that wish in written and legal form. Otherwise, if you want to die, at least take the responsibility to do it to yourself.

Question: If you are the doctor of a sweet and beautiful grandmother, who you have cared for over a month or so, to the point you love her. She is in extreme pain and you know full well anything stronger will either kill her or put her in a coma, but she looks in your eyes, pleading as she asks for the pain to end, and she is ready to pass.....

What would you do?
 
Question: If you are the doctor of a sweet and beautiful grandmother, who you have cared for over a month or so, to the point you love her. She is in extreme pain and you know full well anything stronger will either kill her or put her in a coma, but she looks in your eyes, pleading as she asks for the pain to end, and she is ready to pass.....

What would you do?

Sing Kumbaya.
 
Question: If you are the doctor of a sweet and beautiful grandmother, who you have cared for over a month or so, to the point you love her. She is in extreme pain and you know full well anything stronger will either kill her or put her in a coma, but she looks in your eyes, pleading as she asks for the pain to end, and she is ready to pass.....

What would you do?

Give her enough pain medication to relieve the pain. Pain medication doesn't put you into a coma. It will kill you if you get enough for that to happen.
 
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Give her enough pain medication to relieve the pain. Pain medication doesn't put you into a coma. It will kill you if you get enough for that to happen.

So...you would "Give her enough medication to relieve the pain", knowing full well she will die (as I stated that is the only way to do so)?
 
So...you would "Give her enough medication to relieve the pain", knowing full well she will die (as I stated that is the only way to do so)?

That's not the way it works. With pain medication, you titrate up to get the desired effect. You don't arbitrarily go from 1 mg of morphine to a 10 mg dose. That would not only be stupid, but negligent as well.
 
That's not the way it works. With pain medication, you titrate up to get the desired effect. You don't arbitrarily go from 1 mg of morphine to a 10 mg dose. That would not only be stupid, but negligent as well.

My question again: "Question: If you are the doctor of a sweet and beautiful grandmother, who you have cared for over a month or so, to the point you love her. She is in extreme pain and you know full well anything stronger will either kill her or put her in a coma, but she looks in your eyes, pleading as she asks for the pain to end, and she is ready to pass.....

What would you do?"


As you can see, to relieve the Pain, she will die.

I ask this because someone very close to me was in this position and forced to decide.
 
My question again: "Question: If you are the doctor of a sweet and beautiful grandmother, who you have cared for over a month or so, to the point you love her. She is in extreme pain and you know full well anything stronger will either kill her or put her in a coma, but she looks in your eyes, pleading as she asks for the pain to end, and she is ready to pass.....

What would you do?"




As you can see, to relieve the Pain, she will die.

I ask this because someone very close to me was in this position and forced to decide.

I would do what is realistic, which is exactly what I said. Your hypothetical scenario isn't real-world- it's fantasy which you asked just to make a point.
 
My question again: "Question: If you are the doctor of a sweet and beautiful grandmother, who you have cared for over a month or so, to the point you love her. She is in extreme pain and you know full well anything stronger will either kill her or put her in a coma, but she looks in your eyes, pleading as she asks for the pain to end, and she is ready to pass.....

What would you do?"


As you can see, to relieve the Pain, she will die.

I ask this because someone very close to me was in this position and forced to decide.

This is a no-brainer. You give your loved one the pain medication needed to relieve his/her pain. Even your doctor will agree with that approach. If it is too much for his/her system, then it is a blessing. And you pat yourself on the back that you had the strength you needed to do the exact right thing.
 
I would do what is realistic, which is exactly what I said. Your hypothetical scenario isn't real-world- it's fantasy which you asked just to make a point.


No, I am asking to see if you would do the same as my *******************, and you would not. I can only hope I end up with someone a bit more compassionate.
 
No, I am asking to see if you would do the same as my *******************, and you would not. I can only hope I end up with someone a bit more compassionate.

So, I guess to you, compassion means killing someone against their own ethical and professional standards. Sorry, but I'm not in the business to kill anyone. Relieve suffering when I can, yes. Killing someone with an overdose, no. If that makes me less than compassionate in your own eyes, then so be it.
 
Because mental illness inherently robs someone of the sound judgment necessary to make such a decision. As far as "what gives others the right to judge", it's the same thing that gives us the right to judge that kids can't smoke cigarettes: Kids who smoke cigarettes, like mentally ill people who want to kill themselves, generally aren't capable of making a rational decision and should therefore be protected from hurting themselves.

Why should you be able to restrict the child's ability to do what they decides to do to their body? Because they don't understand? Again, why must you understand what you are doing to be able to practice your rights? Why is it needed?
 
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No, I am asking to see if you would do the same as my *******************, and you would not. I can only hope I end up with someone a bit more compassionate.

Be sure your Healthcare Power of Attorney is in place with you having picked a trusted friend/family member who you believe will understand and respect your wishes. It's the best any of us can do. My cousin is my HCPOA. I give her scenerios all the time...drive her absolutely nutz. But when the time comes, she'll do what I want her to do with no pangs of conscience -- because we've talked about it extensively. Heck, we've even had some pretty good laughs! I've also discussed my wishes with the rest of my family so there is absolutely no question about what I'd want. Last time I went to the hospital, I signed a DNR order for some surgery I was having done. The nurse was flabbergasted...and got a witness. But! No sweeter way to go, imo. ;)
 
Why should you be able to restrict the child's ability to do what they decides to do to their body? Because they don't understand? Again, why must you understand what you are doing to be able to practice your rights? Why is it needed?

Generally speaking, people who are not of sound mind are prohibited from self-harm because they may come to regret their actions once they have acquired (or re-acquired) the ability to make a rational decision.

I'm a bit confused by your post. Are you suggesting that children SHOULD be allowed to smoke cigarettes if they want to?
 
Generally speaking, people who are not of sound mind are prohibited from self-harm because they may come to regret their actions once they have acquired (or re-acquired) the ability to make a rational decision.

That doesn't really mean much though. Why does it matter when talking about access to your rights if you regret it in the future?

I'm a bit confused by your post. Are you suggesting that children SHOULD be allowed to smoke cigarettes if they want to?

Yes
 
Question: If you are the doctor of a sweet and beautiful grandmother, who you have cared for over a month or so, to the point you love her. She is in extreme pain and you know full well anything stronger will either kill her or put her in a coma, but she looks in your eyes, pleading as she asks for the pain to end, and she is ready to pass.....

There is a distinction between the right to die, and the right to be killed. If you want to be killed, then I suggest finding someone who is willing to kill you at your request, or kill yourself. I assure you that if I wanted to die, there is a wide range of methods I could use to facilitate my own death. If someone wants to be killed, it's unethical to expect that of the medical community who is in the business of healing and saving lives. You might find a doctor or nurse who was sympathetic and would give you a lethal dose of drugs, but they would either do it secretly, or they would outright refuse.
 
That doesn't really mean much though. Why does it matter when talking about access to your rights if you regret it in the future?

Because it isn't fair to the victim to be harmed, perhaps irreparably, by something outside of their control. That is something that we should try to prevent if at all possible. If someone who isn't capable of rational action does something that harms themselves, that is every bit as bad as someone or something else harming them. We don't allow mentally ill people to commit suicide for the same reason that we don't allow others to murder them...and we don't allow kids to smoke cigarettes for the same reason that we don't allow others to poison them. It isn't fair that someone should be deprived of their life or health by factors outside their control (whether those factors are the actions of another person or their own irrational mental state).


OK, well if you believe that kids should be able to smoke cigarettes, then let's take this to its logical conclusion. Do you believe that kids should be allowed to shoot up heroin if they want to? Should they be allowed to have sex with adults if they want to? Their body their choice, even if they regret those actions later...right? :shock:
 
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But you said that it doesn't matter whether something offends your personal ethics as long as it doesn't offend someone else's.

No it's not what I said. I said that just because a medical professional feels that it is a violation of their ethical code to assist in a suicide, does not mean that another medical professional will believe that it is against their ethics to assist in a suicide. The only way to assist in a suicide is if the person wants to die and makes that wish known, otherwise, it is murder, not suicide.
 
Because it isn't fair to the victim to be harmed, perhaps irreparably, by something outside of their control.

Still talking about the mental state? How is the decision outside of your control when you are mentally ill? Because you don't understand it? Not sure I buy that to be honest.

That is something that we should try to prevent if at all possible.

I still don't understand why this makes a difference on the existence of the right.

If someone who isn't capable of rational action does something that harms themselves, that is every bit as bad as someone or something else harming them.

What? Not even close. Someone harming themselves rational or not is making a decision on their life and how they want to live it at that moment. While when someone harms you they are violating your ability to live free from destruction and to make your own decisions on your life rational or not.

OK, well if you believe that kids should be able to smoke cigarettes, then let's take this to its logical conclusion.

Sure, we could do that I guess.

Do you believe that kids should be allowed to shoot up heroin if they want to?

Yes.

Should they be allowed to have sex with adults if they want to?

Sure, if it they aren't forced into it.

Their body their choice, even if they regret those actions later...right? :shock:

Yes. How is this shocking anyway? I have talked in depth about this topic before.
 
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I can assure you that most of us in the medical professions are far more aware of the realities of terminal illness than you seem to believe. We treat those who want treatment with agressiveness, and when they don't want treatment, we understand, but we don't try to keep hopeless situations hanging on unless the patient and/or family desires this. It just adds to the suffering.

There are certainly hospitals that will keep patients from leaving to go home with their family if the patient isn't considered "terminally ill" but they still are not doing well. And they will go so far as to make the patient's family feel that taking the person out of the hospital is what will kill them, not the fact that the person is very sick or just old to begin with and likely to die in the hospital.

It may just be a result of our sue-happy country, particularly when it comes to malpractice and the like, but it is quite difficult to really tell now days what the true risks are and whether a person would just be better off at home, spending their time with their family or in the hospital trying to get better so they have more years with their family.
 
What? Not even close. Someone harming themselves rational or not is making a decision on their life and how they want to live it at that moment.

No they aren't. As far as I'm concerned, if a person isn't of a mental state where they can rationally make the decision, then it isn't "them" making the decision at all. And it's just as victimizing if they're killed by some entity named Irrational Self as if they're killed by some entity named Serial Killer. In either case it's a tragedy, and the person is a victim because of actions outside of their control.
 
There are certainly hospitals that will keep patients from leaving to go home with their family if the patient isn't considered "terminally ill" but they still are not doing well. And they will go so far as to make the patient's family feel that taking the person out of the hospital is what will kill them, not the fact that the person is very sick or just old to begin with and likely to die in the hospital.

My experience is that most doctors will abide by the patient's wishes, if he/she desires to go home to die. We often refer patients for hospice care as well. What I do see though, is that doctors and nurses won't be a party to actively facilitating the death of a patient. That was what happened in the case of my father. The doctors told my mother that they would absolutely not prescribe something that would kill him, but they would insure that he had enough to be comfortable. That was plenty for us. In my father's case, he had advanced brain cancer. He never even knew how ill he was, much less that he was dying. It happened so rapidly that we were happy just to have him around for the short time that we did after his diagnosis was made. I would never have desired that someone kill my father. He would never have wanted that either. He was a devout Christian man who believed suicide was wrong, and I could not have lived peacefully with letting someone else make that choice for him.
 
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This is my baby. My best friend of 14 years. 2 hours befor the vet arrived. I promised him. And he knew. Andhe was ready.

I pray someone will do the same for me. Because he wait for me. And I wait for him to meet me on the other side of rainbow bridge.


And now tht I have commenced to get myself totally bawling..I bid you all goodnight. I wont be so maudlin in the morning. Promise. Its just a sad sad subject.

So for clarification..those who are just weary should have the same trust that someone who loves them will do the same as what I did for my friend and loved on. my dog.

it made me feel so sad now,it is worth missing
 
Why does the decision need to be rational? Does an action need to be rational for it be taken? Does a action need to be understood by the people that practice it? I'm really sorry, but I don't see any difference here. I know you are into this whole thing, but rational or irrational behavior doesn't change the nature of the behavior. It is still the same behavior and it still falls under the right to control your body. When talking about wisdom of such a decision perhaps, but that is not really the same thing.



The mentally ill have all the rights of anyone else. Just because they are unstable does not change it. It only changes how you view it, but that alone is not a factor. I understand your want to help them, but that doesn't matter.

irrational behaviour cant control your body.and the decision of a mental patient is usually irrational.
 
irrational behaviour cant control your body.and the decision of a mental patient is usually irrational.
"mental patient" includes those who have been suffering from debilitating depression / anxiety for years and it does not go away.

People who have suffered for 20 years, people that have to take 17 pills a day, that can't get out of bed, that cry for one or two hours every day. People who are so debilitated by their disease that their quality of life sucks. We have this compassion for people with physical ailments, why not mental? They are just as debilitating. It's parity. There is no parity for mental health care because some people don't believe it is real, or that it can hurt just as much as physical ailments. There is no parity in caring for those will mental illness (which is another thread entirely). I would never advocate for compassionate suicide for someone suffering from something, as one person called "'curable' as guilt, shame, or a broken heart"
 
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