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Right to die

Right to die

  • People have no right to die under any circumstance

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Only terminally ill people have the right to die

    Votes: 4 7.5%

  • People have the right to die, but healthcare professionals should not aid in the process

    Votes: 10 18.9%

  • People have the right to die, and healthcare professionals should be allowed to assist suicide

    Votes: 36 67.9%

  • Suicide attempts should not be a criminal offense

    Votes: 23 43.4%

  • Suicide attempts should be illegal

    Votes: 2 3.8%

  • other

    Votes: 8 15.1%
  • Total voters
    53
Kandahar said:
Because mental illness inherently robs someone of the sound judgment necessary to make such a decision. As far as "what gives others the right to judge", it's the same thing that gives us the right to judge that kids can't smoke
cigarettes: Kids who smoke cigarettes, like mentally ill people who want to kill themselves, generally aren't capable of making a rational decision and should therefore be protected from hurting themselves.
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Why is there a belief that mental illness = irrational thought.

Do we want two types of accounts about human behavior – one to explain the
conduct of sane or mentally healthy persons, and another to explain the conduct
of insane or mentally ill persons? I maintain that we do not need, and should not
try, to account for normal behavior one way (motivationally), and for abnormal
behavior another way (causally). Specifically, I suggest that the principle, ‘Actions
speak louder than words,’ can be used to explain the conduct of mentally ill
persons just as well as it can the behavior of mentally healthy persons. Thomas
Szasz, Insanity: The Idea and Its Consequences (1997: 352)
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Note to self:
Never post when loaded. :3oops:
 
digsbe said:
Do people have the right to die and take their own lives? Should healthcare professionals be allowed to aid patients in taking their lives in a painless and more dignified manner? Should we criminalize suicide or remove criminal status?

What are you opinions on suicide/self-deliverance/right to die?
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You have the right to die,but medical professionals should not be allowed to help you commit suicide. The only time suicide attempts should be a criminal offense is they harm others and or damage property.
 
if we can put a suffering pet to sleep, i don't see a reason why people shouldn't be given the same option in the case of their own lives.

however, there should be a process, and physicians should be involved.
 
digsbe said:
Do people have the right to die and take their own lives? Should healthcare professionals be allowed to aid patients in taking their lives in a painless and more dignified manner? Should we criminalize suicide or remove criminal status?

What are you opinions on suicide/self-deliverance/right to die?
Click to expand...

While I believe that suicide is cowardly and wrong, and that those who do commit suicide will burn in hell according to Traditional Christianity, I acknowledge that this is America, and that not everyone is Christian. That said, I think people have the right to kill themselves. That only includes the person, not any other person to aid in the matter. For the healthcare professional it's unethical. These healthcare workers exist for the sole purpose to heal and nurture people. How exactly does death enter into the equation of maintaining life?

There are various kinds of suicide. We can't criminal those individuals who attempt to take their own lives. Hold healthcare professionals to a higher standard, and keep from deviating from the goal of maintaining life. Then again the scenario of healthcare professionals aiding in suicide doesn't seem to harm anyone else; it's similar in that one aspect to prostitution and gay marriage. There's also the factor of cost; will it be cheaper to kill the person quickly, or let that person drag out their miserable and costly existence? But then, this is life we're talking about. Familiarity breeds consent; at what point do you think we'll go from assisted suicides to mandated euthanasia? Iirc, China has done the same sort of thing.

Also, how many people here who are against assisted suicide have been in that horrible situation where, even with medicine, they're in excruciating pain. Every secnd, every minute, every hour, every day, and so on. How long do you reckon you'll maintain your stance before you break down and give into the pain? What happens when you've been crushed to the point of begging for death, and then find that people who once shared your beliefs, and are not feeling your pain... now decide your fate? Change your perspective, and the reality changes along with it; I doubt anyone here has experienced pain over a certain length of time that has reduced them to begging for death.
 
Wake said:
While I believe that suicide is cowardly and wrong, and that those who do commit suicide will burn in hell according to Traditional Christianity, I acknowledge that this is America, and that not everyone is Christian. That said, I think people have the right to kill themselves. That only includes the person, not any other person to aid in the matter. For the healthcare professional it's unethical. These healthcare workers exist for the sole purpose to heal and nurture people. How exactly does death enter into the equation of maintaining life?

There are various kinds of suicide. We can't criminal those individuals who attempt to take their own lives. Hold healthcare professionals to a higher standard, and keep from deviating from the goal of maintaining life. Then again the scenario of healthcare professionals aiding in suicide doesn't seem to harm anyone else; it's similar in that one aspect to prostitution and gay marriage. There's also the factor of cost; will it be cheaper to kill the person quickly, or let that person drag out their miserable and costly existence? But then, this is life we're talking about. Familiarity breeds consent; at what point do you think we'll go from assisted suicides to mandated euthanasia? Iirc, China has done the same sort of thing.

Also, how many people here who are against assisted suicide have been in that horrible situation where, even with medicine, they're in excruciating pain. Every secnd, every minute, every hour, every day, and so on. How long do you reckon you'll maintain your stance before you break down and give into the pain? What happens when you've been crushed to the point of begging for death, and then find that people who once shared your beliefs, and are not feeling your pain... now decide your fate? Change your perspective, and the reality changes along with it; I doubt anyone here has experienced pain over a certain length of time that has reduced them to begging for death.
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As a Christian, do you believe those who suffer agonizing pain from a terminal disease will burn in hell after ending their own life?
 
Henrin said:
Why does the decision need to be rational? Does an action need to be rational for it be taken? Does a action need to be understood by the people that practice it? I'm really sorry, but I don't see any difference here. I know you are into this whole thing, but rational or irrational behavior doesn't change the nature of the behavior. It is still the same behavior and it still falls under the right to control your body. When talking about wisdom of such a decision perhaps, but that is not really the same thing.



The mentally ill have all the rights of anyone else. Just because they are unstable does not change it. It only changes how you view it, but that alone is not a factor. I understand your want to help them, but that doesn't matter.
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If someone is making a life altering decision like this based on faulty information/mental illness, I see no reason why anyone should assist them in doing it. If they WANT to do it, anyway, they certainly have that ability on their own, and plenty do.
 
Mensch said:
As a Christian, do you believe those who suffer agonizing pain from a terminal disease will burn in hell after ending their own life?
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Yes I do. The Bible states in quite a few areas that suicide is a sin, because you vanquish the life that God gave you. That is what the Bible states, and I hold to that.
 
Wake said:
Yes I do. The Bible states in quite a few areas that suicide is a sin, because you vanquish the life that God gave you. That is what the Bible states, and I hold to that.
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I.m sure you also avoid mixed cloth and shellfish...and thinks its ok to sell your 12yr old daughter.
 
Yep, every one of my dogs has gotten an easier exit than mine will probably be.

Someday euthanasia will be legal...with physician assistance. That euthanasia should only be permitted if the person himself requests it.

Even Christians should look at it differently...Christ himself, according to scripture, committed suicide. He certainly had the power NOT to be crucified and decided that's what he wanted to do.
 
Wake said:
How exactly does death enter into the equation of maintaining life?
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I would like to address just this question right here.

Death is very important to maintaining life, all over nature. Plants die to feed multiple different animals. Many animals die to feed other animals. When fires destroy and kill off forests full of trees, new plants and trees can now grow and live their own lives.

Nature balances will try to balance itself to maintain life and death since nature can only support so many of any one type of living thing before that thing destroys too many resources for it to survive.

Death is a very important part of the equation of life.
 
tecoyah said:
I.m sure you also avoid mixed cloth and shellfish...and thinks its ok to sell your 12yr old daughter.
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What does that have to do with anything, Tecoyah? Do you think that question is going to change our beliefs on suicide? Why believe theft is a sin, either?
 
roguenuke said:
I would like to address just this question right here.

Death is very important to maintaining life, all over nature. Plants die to feed multiple different animals. Many animals die to feed other animals. When fires destroy and kill off forests full of trees, new plants and trees can now grow and live their own lives.

Nature balances will try to balance itself to maintain life and death since nature can only support so many of any one type of living thing before that thing destroys too many resources for it to survive.

Death is a very important part of the equation of life.
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While life and death are important aspect of existence, death is not a part of life. Meaning, helping people kill themselves doesn't seem to help other living people. I doesn't make much sense to maintain life by taking it, much like it doesn't make much sense to fix a car by rolling it off a cliff.

I think your statement is correct if it's being applied to our ecology. Life and death are bother very important for our wildlife, our oceans, forests, soil, etc. Being one who gardens and composts soil, I definitely agree that life and death are both essential and beneficial to nature. Death is a very important part of existence, but it is not necessarily an important part of life. To animals and plants, sure, but human life and death are a bit different from the life and death dynamics of composting, etc. If death was such an important part of life regarding human life, then why not find other ways to help humans die? Perhaps we should install the concept of uethanasia as well, because we humans could benefit a bit more from the deaths of the unbeneficial elderly.
 
Wake said:
Yes I do. The Bible states in quite a few areas that suicide is a sin, because you vanquish the life that God gave you. That is what the Bible states, and I hold to that.
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I don't mean to get off topic, but do you take the bible literally? If you're unwilling to make an exception for those in agonizing pain wishing to die, I imagine you won't make the exception in regards to other parts of the bible...say selling your daughter into slavery? Stoning adulterers and homosexuals?
 
Mensch said:
I don't mean to get off topic, but do you take the bible literally? If you're unwilling to make an exception for those in agonizing pain wishing to die, I imagine you won't make the exception in regards to other parts of the bible...say selling your daughter into slavery? Stoning adulterers and homosexuals?
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I don't want this thread to be derailed, so I'll sum up my beliefs and leave that issue at that.

As a Christian, I do take the Bible literally. Furthermore, I follow the New Testament. Even if the New Testament calls for the stoning of adulterers/homosexuals, just because I don't go out killing people doesn't in any way mean I can't uphold the less extreme aspects of the Bible. According to Christianity, if one does not stone, must that also mean you don't have to follow the scriptures on suicide? If you don't follow the scripture on suicide, do you not have to follow these other scriptures, etc? And on and on that goes until you basically discard the whole Bible. I follow what is practical in the Bible, and viewing suicide as a sin and voting on my beliefs is not impractical. IF it turn out that not following the entirety of the NT means a trip to Hell, then I'll take responsibility for it. Just because you don't kill people in the NT, if it even calls for that, doesn't mean you should not follow anything else in the NT.

Those are my thoughts, and I'm leaving it at that.
 
Wake said:
I don't want this thread to be derailed, so I'll sum up my beliefs and leave that issue at that.

As a Christian, I do take the Bible literally. Furthermore, I follow the New Testament. Even if the New Testament calls for the stoning of adulterers/homosexuals, just because I don't go out killing people doesn't in any way mean I can't uphold the less extreme aspects of the Bible. According to Christianity, if one does not stone, must that also mean you don't have to follow the scriptures on suicide? If you don't follow the scripture on suicide, do you not have to follow these other scriptures, etc? And on and on that goes until you basically discard the whole Bible. I follow what is practical in the Bible, and viewing suicide as a sin and voting on my beliefs is not impractical. IF it turn out that not following the entirety of the NT means a trip to Hell, then I'll take responsibility for it. Just because you don't kill people in the NT, if it even calls for that, doesn't mean you should not follow anything else in the NT.

Those are my thoughts, and I'm leaving it at that.
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So, you basically pick and choose what you view as practical.

And BTW, if you're a Christian and support the NT, you HAVE to likewise support and uphold the OT.
 
Honestly who would want the job of killing sick and mentally ill people day after day. If people want to die maybe they should be allowed to buy cyanide pills with morphine and do it themselves but to ask doctors to do this in their job description is just wrong. These people study and fork out money for years of their life to save peoples lives why should we put this negative aspect into their job description.
 
Wake said:
While life and death are important aspect of existence, death is not a part of life. Meaning, helping people kill themselves doesn't seem to help other living people. I doesn't make much sense to maintain life by taking it, much like it doesn't make much sense to fix a car by rolling it off a cliff.

I think your statement is correct if it's being applied to our ecology. Life and death are bother very important for our wildlife, our oceans, forests, soil, etc. Being one who gardens and composts soil, I definitely agree that life and death are both essential and beneficial to nature. Death is a very important part of existence, but it is not necessarily an important part of life. To animals and plants, sure, but human life and death are a bit different from the life and death dynamics of composting, etc. If death was such an important part of life regarding human life, then why not find other ways to help humans die? Perhaps we should install the concept of uethanasia as well, because we humans could benefit a bit more from the deaths of the unbeneficial elderly.
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It is certainly beneficial to life as well. It helps us realize that we do have limitations. It makes people more apt to realize that they should not take their days of life for granted because they are limited. It also can encourage people to try to live healthier lives that are balanced.

And there are definitely harmful effects to allowing people or worse, forcing people, to live in immense pain and suffering just for us. Some people hold on too long and harm others just to keep a person alive who wants to die in peace.

Have you ever seen the movie "My Sister's Keeper"? I love that movie and seems a good example of how keeping a person alive who would rather die can be harmful to others and can negatively effect, even physically, the lives of others.

I also think of the people in my life who died in hospitals because we as a society want to prolong life so long that the remaining years end up being almost torture for many people. And it isn't always the family either. The hospital told my mother that if she took my grandmother out for my wedding and my grandmother died, that my mother could be held responsible. My grandmother died a couple of weeks later in the hospital. She missed out on seeing any of her grandchildren get married because we can't see that death is a natural part of life.
 
Wake said:
I don't want this thread to be derailed, so I'll sum up my beliefs and leave that issue at that.

As a Christian, I do take the Bible literally. Furthermore, I follow the New Testament. Even if the New Testament calls for the stoning of adulterers/homosexuals, just because I don't go out killing people doesn't in any way mean I can't uphold the less extreme aspects of the Bible. According to Christianity, if one does not stone, must that also mean you don't have to follow the scriptures on suicide? If you don't follow the scripture on suicide, do you not have to follow these other scriptures, etc? And on and on that goes until you basically discard the whole Bible. I follow what is practical in the Bible, and viewing suicide as a sin and voting on my beliefs is not impractical. IF it turn out that not following the entirety of the NT means a trip to Hell, then I'll take responsibility for it. Just because you don't kill people in the NT, if it even calls for that, doesn't mean you should not follow anything else in the NT.

Those are my thoughts, and I'm leaving it at that.
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What about those who are brain dead and have been living on life support for many months/years?

Are YOU going to pay the millions of dollars to keep them alive if the family simply cannot afford it and/or doesn't want them to continue living in that condition?
 
Justice For All said:
Honestly who would want the job of killing sick and mentally ill people day after day. If people want to die maybe they should be allowed to buy cyanide pills with morphine and do it themselves but to ask doctors to do this in their job description is just wrong. These people study and fork out money for years of their life to save peoples lives why should we put this negative aspect into their job description.
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There are health care professionals who would be willing to assist in suicide. No one should ever be forced to provide assistance, and I don't believe that is what was being suggested. I'm pretty sure it was a question of allowing those who wish to assist someone else to commit suicide to legally do so.
 
Justice For All said:
Honestly who would want the job of killing sick and mentally ill people day after day. If people want to die maybe they should be allowed to buy cyanide pills with morphine and do it themselves but to ask doctors to do this in their job description is just wrong. These people study and fork out money for years of their life to save peoples lives why should we put this negative aspect into their job description.
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Because sometimes that is the kindest act of all.

Doctors are not unmoved by their terminally-ill patients' suffering..
 
I actually think there is more "euthanasia" going on than one would suspect. Stop and think about it. If one is terminally ill and wants to end one's life, all one has to do is ask to be heavily medicated for pain to the point of stupor...instruct people around them not to give them any water...then will go into cardiac arrest in three days. It's not as pleasant as it could be, but it works.

Those people who are paralyzed and don't wish to continue living can refuse medical treatment for things like pneumonia and other life-threatening illnesses...and so instruct their healthcare powers of attorney.

Those stroke victims who cannot feed themselves can refuse food and will die in three weeks.
It can be done, it's just a shame it can't be done more easily.
 
roguenuke said:
(1) It is certainly beneficial to life as well. It helps us realize that we do have limitations. It makes people more apt to realize that they should not take their days of life for granted because they are limited. It also can encourage people to try to live healthier lives that are balanced.

(2) And there are definitely harmful effects to allowing people or worse, forcing people, to live in immense pain and suffering just for us. Some people hold on too long and harm others just to keep a person alive who wants to die in peace.

(3) Have you ever seen the movie "My Sister's Keeper"? I love that movie and seems a good example of how keeping a person alive who would rather die can be harmful to others and can negatively effect, even physically, the lives of others.

(4) I also think of the people in my life who died in hospitals because we as a society want to prolong life so long that the remaining years end up being almost torture for many people. And it isn't always the family either. The hospital told my mother that if she took my grandmother out for my wedding and my grandmother died, that my mother could be held responsible. My grandmother died a couple of weeks later in the hospital. She missed out on seeing any of her grandchildren get married because we can't see that death is a natural part of life.
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(1) You make good points. You're making me rethink my position, lol.

(2) That too is true.

(3) I've never seen the movie, but I'll be seeing it soon since it seems interesting.

(4) THIS is true. During my med-surg clinicals, we'd see certain people that have suffered terrible bed sores, dehydration, lack of care, etc. And with this worsening economy it stands to reason that with less money less care will follow.

You're pulling on my heartstrings, Rogue. :shock:

I suppose I could shift my pov on this, but then if it turns out, after death, that the Bible was indeed infallible... well, that may be a bad thing for me. It's something to think on and discuss with family, etc.

Mensch said:
What about those who are brain dead and have been living on life support for many months/years?

Are YOU going to pay the millions of dollars to keep them alive if the family simply cannot afford it and/or doesn't want them to continue living in that condition?
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Well, the thing with brain-dead people is that they cannot really make a decision to die, at that moment. It's usually up to the family/spouse, etc. I forgot the clinical term, but I believe there are orders a person can give that contains the person't orders should said person be put in a coma. Perhaps you have a point on that issue. If I am against assisted-suicide, it seems I would also have to be against the death of those in comas.
 
Wake said:
What does that have to do with anything, Tecoyah? Do you think that question is going to change our beliefs on suicide? Why believe theft is a sin, either?
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Your reasoning for your position was that it is stated in the Bible...those items I listed are also in the Bible, and so I used them to point out certain inefficiencies in your stance.
 
tecoyah said:
Your reasoning for your position was that it is stated in the Bible...those items I listed are also in the Bible, and so I used them to point out certain inefficiencies in your stance.
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So because I don't stone homosexuals [assuming that's even in the NT], I shouldn't have any Biblical stance on suicide?
 
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