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Right to die

Right to die

  • People have no right to die under any circumstance

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Only terminally ill people have the right to die

    Votes: 4 7.5%

  • People have the right to die, but healthcare professionals should not aid in the process

    Votes: 10 18.9%

  • People have the right to die, and healthcare professionals should be allowed to assist suicide

    Votes: 36 67.9%

  • Suicide attempts should not be a criminal offense

    Votes: 23 43.4%

  • Suicide attempts should be illegal

    Votes: 2 3.8%

  • other

    Votes: 8 15.1%
  • Total voters
    53
Kandahar said:
I've never heard of attempted suicide being a "crime" in the sense that someone would be convicted and punished for it. In the places where it's a crime, it's only a crime so that law enforcement has the legal authority to detain the person and get them the help that they need.
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Plus there are suicides that are a danger to others.

Jumping off a building can be one.

Suicide by Cop can be one.
 
The right to decide what one should do with ones own life is the foundation of all personal liberty. People absolutely have the right to die, and they have the right to do so in a dignified manner. They should be provided assistance if they need it, or an effective and humane means of doing it themselves if they prefer.

Suicide attempts shouldn't be criminal, even if you disagree that people have the right to die. What crime have they committed? At best, they are just a person trying to exercise agency over their own existence in a society that refuses to provide them any effect means of doing so, and at worst they are mentally ill. Neither should be treated as a crime.

This idea that it's wrong for people to choose to end their lives because others may not like it is, in my mind, the epitome of selfishness. I can't even pretend to understand this train of thought - "your suffering is irrelevant because I prefer for you to continue living regardless of how you feel about it, or your quality of life." Seriously?

In fact, people who do commit suicide (even many of those who do so due to mental illness) often go to great lengths to arrange for things after their death. It's not something most people do in the rage of a moment. But this is a favor - not an entitlement. The preferences of others do not negate a person's right to agency.

I am in favor of screenings for mental health crisis upon a person requesting to recieve assistance in committing suicide. What might be done if the person was having a mental health crisis is dependent on a lot of factors, I think. Their history, the nature of the mental health issue, etc.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Plus there are suicides that are a danger to others.

Jumping off a building can be one.

Suicide by Cop can be one.
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Slippery slope, that. As long as it does not cause harm to another innocent person, then your body is yours to do with as you wish. That includes ending your life. Mentally ill or not. The couple that were married 60 years...one dies, the other follows suit. That person is not mentally ill. They just are tired and dont want to wait. So they go. Me? It all depends on ones spiritual belief. Mine is...I cant go uninvited. Unless my brain isnt firing all its spark plugs due to pain. Or worse..that I am helpless and cant do it myself..then what? torment for years maybe. Torment of having to continue to be where I don't want to be. I don't think that is right.
 
Kandahar said:
I've never heard of attempted suicide being a "crime" in the sense that someone would be convicted and punished for it. In the places where it's a crime, it's only a crime so that law enforcement has the legal authority to detain the person and get them the help that they need.
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I cannot find anything online that says attempted suicide is a crime. The crimes that people are charged with are related to other things. Ex: "suicide by cop" the people can be charged with possession of weapons, attempted murder if they fire, etc...
I have ever heard of anyone being prosecuted / jailed for attempting suicide if they did not commit a crime as well. They would be hospitalized.
 
Kandahar said:
People who are depressed and suicidal should NOT have a "right" to die. They are mentally unwell and not of sound mind to make such a decision. Often, depression sets in in the late teens and early twenties, when the person has their entire life ahead of them. Their depression may just be a snapshot of one moment in a life that would be full of happiness. People should not be able to kill themselves under those circumstances. That's very different than someone who is terminally ill.
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There should be age limits and if you are over like 25? You should be allowed to do it as long as you can prove you are mentally sound.

Sure it would be selfish for someone healthy to do it but our body our choice, right?
 
Kali said:
There should be age limits and if you are over like 25? You should be allowed to do it as long as you can prove you are mentally sound.

Sure it would be selfish for someone healthy to do it but our body our choice, right?
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How would you even enforce such a restriction? Consider a 16 year old who decides they want to die so when no one else is around they slit their throat. Or am I misunderstanding your point?
 
Kali said:
There should be age limits and if you are over like 25? You should be allowed to do it as long as you can prove you are mentally sound.

Sure it would be selfish for someone healthy to do it but our body our choice, right?
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What about a 10 year old with end-stage cancer who has only a few weeks and is in pain?
 
Kali said:
There should be age limits and if you are over like 25?
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No. The same logic applies to a 25-year-old that would apply to an 18-year-old. Someone who is committing suicide because they're depressed is acting in what is very likely one snapshot of their life. They could go on to lead a very productive, happy life.

You should be allowed to do it as long as you can prove you are mentally sound.
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Wanting to commit suicide is itself an indication that the person isn't mentally sound, unless there are extenuating circumstances where they clearly don't have a future (i.e. a terminal illness or lengthy incarceration).

Sure it would be selfish for someone healthy to do it but our body our choice, right?
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Not without a good reason.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Yeah, makes no sense to me. I do not agree with doctor assisted suicide in cases where one is mentally ill, however, that doesn't prevent them from taking their own lives without assistance.
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So you would rather someone like me have to do it myself or suffer til the end? Thanks a lot.

We have rights ya know. I guess the courts would have to get involved because this could be considered discrimination and there are varying levels of mental illness? I think so.
 
I killed my dog. that was the hardest thing Ive ever done. My other dog, his buddy, died. And when he died, so do the one still living. he lost all will to live. For months, he barely ate. He wouldnt play any more. He was grieving, just as I was. But then he got cancer. The vet said it would slowly strangle him but as long as he was eating and drinking, I was to let him continue on. Wrong. I had anice chat with him one night. We wer laying on the floor....cuddling. And I whispered in his ear to tell me when he was ready. Did he want to be drugged up? no. Could he not stick around for ME, because losing both would kill my heart. Which was selfish. And he answered int he only way he could. He stared in my eyes. One day soon after that conversation, he couldnt get up without me helping him. And he looked at me. He drank. He ate a little bit. And continued to stare at me. And he shadowed me whenever he could get up on his own.The next morning, it was like I could hear him in my head. It was time. Let him go. He didnt want tobe here any more. He didnt want to strangle.He didnt want to have more pain. Why wait until he felt it so badly? Why? for ME? That, was selfish on my part. So I said ok. Today. And i called the vet who came to myhouse. I told him (my dog), he was going to go now. That his friend was waitng for him and I would be ok. To not be scared. And he as sent over rainbow bridge in my arms. Just as the needle was inserted, he looked at me again and laid his head down, sighed and laid still. As the plunger plunnged, I said "go. Hes waiting. wait for me, too. Ill be along shortly" and his eyes ticked up at me in gratitude. and he was gone. I cried for months. Hubby cried for months. And the day he was gone, the dragonflies came. Thousadns of them. He was letting me know he was fine. I did the right thing, before he suffered further.

If only a human would do that for me.
 
Enola said:
Slippery slope, that. As long as it does not cause harm to another innocent person, then your body is yours to do with as you wish. That includes ending your life. Mentally ill or not. The couple that were married 60 years...one dies, the other follows suit. That person is not mentally ill. They just are tired and dont want to wait. So they go. Me? It all depends on ones spiritual belief. Mine is...I cant go uninvited. Unless my brain isnt firing all its spark plugs due to pain. Or worse..that I am helpless and cant do it myself..then what? torment for years maybe. Torment of having to continue to be where I don't want to be. I don't think that is right.
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It could be argued that the person commiting the act of suicide does harm innocent people in reguards to those left behind. Like the pain of parents when their child takes their own life. :(

Most that commit suicide harm on an emotional level in reguards to those that are here in this Earth. It is sad. But I do agree with the right to die.

I also do feel it is a very selfish act in a lot of cases though.
 
Kali said:
So you would rather someone like me have to do it myself or suffer til the end? Thanks a lot.
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We've talked about this before, Kali. If someone is mentally ill, that precludes them from making a rational decision on whether they should live or die. If they are NOT mentally ill, I would have no problem with assisted suicide.

We have rights ya know. I guess the courts would have to get involved because this could be considered discrimination and there are varying levels of mental illness? I think so.
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Discrimination? Discriminating against the mentally ill for not allowing them to harm themselves? I doubt that the courts will do much with THAT.
 
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This is my baby. My best friend of 14 years. 2 hours befor the vet arrived. I promised him. And he knew. Andhe was ready.

I pray someone will do the same for me. Because he wait for me. And I wait for him to meet me on the other side of rainbow bridge.


And now tht I have commenced to get myself totally bawling..I bid you all goodnight. I wont be so maudlin in the morning. Promise. Its just a sad sad subject.

So for clarification..those who are just weary should have the same trust that someone who loves them will do the same as what I did for my friend and loved on. my dog.
 
Kali said:
So you would rather someone like me have to do it myself or suffer til the end? Thanks a lot.

We have rights ya know. I guess the courts would have to get involved because this could be considered discrimination and there are varying levels of mental illness? I think so.
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This. There are lots of different kinds of mental illness, and people with mental illness come to suicide from lots of different directions and for different reasons.

Yes, there's the person who wakes up one day in a psychotic break or crashing into a first depression and attempts, but that's definitely not all of them, or even the majority. Even the mentally ill will try to fight for their lives, often for years or decades.

Some people who are mentally ill have simply exhausted all of the options without any improvement, and have decided it's time for them. It's no different than having any other excruciating and untreatable illness.

One could probably diagnose most people living with any terminal disease as also having depression to some degree. Does that mean they are too "unsound" to decide to die?
 
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Kali said:
It could be argued that the person commiting the act of suicide does harm innocent people in reguards to those left behind. Like the pain of parents when their child takes their own life. :(

Most that commit suicide harm on an emotional level in reguards to those that are here in this Earth. It is sad. But I do agree with the right to die.

I also do feel it is a very selfish act in a lot of cases though.
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But what about those that have nobody? I have hubby and my pets. thats it. without doctor assistance, I HAVE to do it myself. Which means I have to do it before it gets to where Im locked up in a mental ward beause the government thinks Im mental and I cant do it myself. Im not mental. Im tired. I lived my life. I hope Im invited and dont have to do it myself.
 
Enola said:
I killed my dog. that was the hardest thing Ive ever done. My other dog, his buddy, died. And when he died, so do the one still living. he lost all will to live. For months, he barely ate. He wouldnt play any more. He was grieving, just as I was. But then he got cancer. The vet said it would slowly strangle him but as long as he was eating and drinking, I was to let him continue on. Wrong. I had anice chat with him one night. We wer laying on the floor....cuddling. And I whispered in his ear to tell me when he was ready. Did he want to be drugged up? no. Could he not stick around for ME, because losing both would kill my heart. Which was selfish. And he answered int he only way he could. He stared in my eyes. One day soon after that conversation, he couldnt get up without me helping him. And he looked at me. He drank. He ate a little bit. And continued to stare at me. And he shadowed me whenever he could get up on his own.The next morning, it was like I could hear him in my head. It was time. Let him go. He didnt want tobe here any more. He didnt want to strangle.He didnt want to have more pain. Why wait until he felt it so badly? Why? for ME? That, was selfish on my part. So I said ok. Today. And i called the vet who came to myhouse. I told him (my dog), he was going to go now. That his friend was waitng for him and I would be ok. To not be scared. And he as sent over rainbow bridge in my arms. Just as the needle was inserted, he looked at me again and laid his head down, sighed and laid still. As the plunger plunnged, I said "go. Hes waiting. wait for me, too. Ill be along shortly" and his eyes ticked up at me in gratitude. and he was gone. I cried for months. Hubby cried for months. And the day he was gone, the dragonflies came. Thousadns of them. He was letting me know he was fine. I did the right thing, before he suffered further.

If only a human would do that for me.
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:angel?:
That was very brave of you. I had a similar experience with my cats a few years ago. One had been with me for 17 years and the other 16. I am afraid that I waited too long and they may have suffered, but I could not let go. They were my best friends, we went through so much over the years.... It's making me cry.
 
Enola said:
I killed my dog. that was the hardest thing Ive ever done. My other dog, his buddy, died. And when he died, so do the one still living. he lost all will to live. For months, he barely ate. He wouldnt play any more. He was grieving, just as I was. But then he got cancer. The vet said it would slowly strangle him but as long as he was eating and drinking, I was to let him continue on. Wrong. I had anice chat with him one night. We wer laying on the floor....cuddling. And I whispered in his ear to tell me when he was ready. Did he want to be drugged up? no. Could he not stick around for ME, because losing both would kill my heart. Which was selfish. And he answered int he only way he could. He stared in my eyes. One day soon after that conversation, he couldnt get up without me helping him. And he looked at me. He drank. He ate a little bit. And continued to stare at me. And he shadowed me whenever he could get up on his own.The next morning, it was like I could hear him in my head. It was time. Let him go. He didnt want tobe here any more. He didnt want to strangle.He didnt want to have more pain. Why wait until he felt it so badly? Why? for ME? That, was selfish on my part. So I said ok. Today. And i called the vet who came to myhouse. I told him (my dog), he was going to go now. That his friend was waitng for him and I would be ok. To not be scared. And he as sent over rainbow bridge in my arms. Just as the needle was inserted, he looked at me again and laid his head down, sighed and laid still. As the plunger plunnged, I said "go. Hes waiting. wait for me, too. Ill be along shortly" and his eyes ticked up at me in gratitude. and he was gone. I cried for months. Hubby cried for months. And the day he was gone, the dragonflies came. Thousadns of them. He was letting me know he was fine. I did the right thing, before he suffered further.

If only a human would do that for me.
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I'm undergoing a similar conversation with my cat at the moment. I hope I will be able to understand her when she tells me it's time for her to go. I also hope I'll be strong enough to honor that.

That was a really beautiful story, and he was lucky to have you.
 
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Enola said:
I killed my dog. that was the hardest thing Ive ever done. My other dog, his buddy, died. And when he died, so do the one still living. he lost all will to live. For months, he barely ate. He wouldnt play any more. He was grieving, just as I was. But then he got cancer. The vet said it would slowly strangle him but as long as he was eating and drinking, I was to let him continue on. Wrong. I had anice chat with him one night. We wer laying on the floor....cuddling. And I whispered in his ear to tell me when he was ready. Did he want to be drugged up? no. Could he not stick around for ME, because losing both would kill my heart. Which was selfish. And he answered int he only way he could. He stared in my eyes. One day soon after that conversation, he couldnt get up without me helping him. And he looked at me. He drank. He ate a little bit. And continued to stare at me. And he shadowed me whenever he could get up on his own.The next morning, it was like I could hear him in my head. It was time. Let him go. He didnt want tobe here any more. He didnt want to strangle.He didnt want to have more pain. Why wait until he felt it so badly? Why? for ME? That, was selfish on my part. So I said ok. Today. And i called the vet who came to myhouse. I told him (my dog), he was going to go now. That his friend was waitng for him and I would be ok. To not be scared. And he as sent over rainbow bridge in my arms. Just as the needle was inserted, he looked at me again and laid his head down, sighed and laid still. As the plunger plunnged, I said "go. Hes waiting. wait for me, too. Ill be along shortly" and his eyes ticked up at me in gratitude. and he was gone. I cried for months. Hubby cried for months. And the day he was gone, the dragonflies came. Thousadns of them. He was letting me know he was fine. I did the right thing, before he suffered further.

If only a human would do that for me.
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I am gonna cry now. You did the right thing and just wish I could give you a big hug.
 
I support the right to die and to have a medical professional help you. I might support criminalization of suicide attempts that put the rest of the public in danger.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
We've talked about this before, Kali. If someone is mentally ill, that precludes them from making a rational decision on whether they should live or die. If they are NOT mentally ill, I would have no problem with assisted suicide.
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Why does the decision need to be rational? Does an action need to be rational for it be taken? Does a action need to be understood by the people that practice it? I'm really sorry, but I don't see any difference here. I know you are into this whole thing, but rational or irrational behavior doesn't change the nature of the behavior. It is still the same behavior and it still falls under the right to control your body. When talking about wisdom of such a decision perhaps, but that is not really the same thing.

Discrimination? Discriminating against the mentally ill for not allowing them to harm themselves? I doubt that the courts will do much with THAT.
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The mentally ill have all the rights of anyone else. Just because they are unstable does not change it. It only changes how you view it, but that alone is not a factor. I understand your want to help them, but that doesn't matter.
 
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Henrin said:
Why does the decision need to be rational? Does an action need to be rational for it be taken? Does a action need to be understood by the people that practice it? I'm really sorry, but I don't see any difference here. I know you are into this whole thing, but rational or irrational behavior doesn't change the nature of the behavior. It is still the same behavior and it still falls under the right to control your body. When talking about wisdom of such a decision perhaps, but that is not really the same thing.

The mentally ill have all the rights of anyone else. Just because they are unstable does not change it. It only changes how you view it, but that alone is not a factor. I understand your want to help them, but that doesn't matter.
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I'm mostly with you here, but here's the question I keep coming back to in this case, and why I'd like for there to be a screening for mental health crisis.

What about someone who has a sudden break? For the sake of simplicity, let's say they have no history of it from the past.

Should steps be taken to immediately de-escalate the crisis first, and then re-consult about the request for assisted suicide?

It is true that if it's granted outright, it's not as though they will have the opportunity to regret it. But in cases like that, do we have a responsibility to stabilize before we grant the request? We deny requests when ability to consent is in question or clearly has been lost all the time. And while I don't think mental illness as a whole instantly negates ability to consent, I think that there is a case to be made that in some extreme cases it does.

That is a fuzzy issue to me, and perhaps a sole exception to my general response, which is that requests for assisted suicide should be granted outright.
 
Henrin said:
Why does the decision need to be rational? Does an action need to be rational for it be taken? Does a action need to be understood by the people that practice it? I'm really sorry, but I don't see any difference here. I know you are into this whole thing, but rational or irrational behavior doesn't change the nature of the behavior. It is still the same behavior and it still falls under the right to control your body. When talking about wisdom of such a decision perhaps, but that is not really the same thing.
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It's the same reason we don't allow 5-year-olds to smoke cigarettes and drink booze. One could argue that they have the "right to control their own body," but the fact is that they are not of sound mind to make certain decisions regarding their own body, and so we prevent them from doing things that might cause them to harm themselves. By the same token, a person who is mentally unwell is not of sound mind to make certain decisions regarding their own body, and so we prevent them from doing things that might cause them to harm themselves.
 
Kandahar said:
It's the same reason we don't allow 5-year-olds to smoke cigarettes and drink booze. One could argue that they have the "right to control their own body," but the fact is that they are not of sound mind to make certain decisions regarding their own body, and so we prevent them from doing things that might cause them to harm themselves. By the same token, a person who is mentally unwell is not of sound mind to make certain decisions regarding their own body, and so we prevent them from doing things that might cause them to harm themselves.
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I'll go with henrin on this one. Mental Illness is just as debilitating as physical illnesses and has a tendency to be chronic. What gives other people the right to judge when a person's quality of life is so low that they can die? If people can commit suicide because of physical conditions why not mental?
 
taxigirl said:
I'll go with henrin on this one. Mental Illness is just as debilitating as physical illnesses and has a tendency to be chronic. What gives other people the right to judge when a person's quality of life is so low that they can die? If people can commit suicide because of physical conditions why not mental?
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Because mental illness inherently robs someone of the sound judgment necessary to make such a decision. As far as "what gives others the right to judge", it's the same thing that gives us the right to judge that kids can't smoke cigarettes: Kids who smoke cigarettes, like mentally ill people who want to kill themselves, generally aren't capable of making a rational decision and should therefore be protected from hurting themselves.
 
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