View Poll Results: Right to die

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  • People have no right to die under any circumstance

    15 18.52%
  • Only terminally ill people have the right to die

    5 6.17%
  • People have the right to die, but healthcare professionals should not aid in the process

    11 13.58%
  • People have the right to die, and healthcare professionals should be allowed to assist suicide

    46 56.79%
  • Suicide attempts should not be a criminal offense

    26 32.10%
  • Suicide attempts should be illegal

    11 13.58%
  • other

    8 9.88%
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Thread: Right to die

  1. #111
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why shouldn't the medical professionals help? They are the most qualified authorities on things that kill people, particularly with little to no pain. Wouldn't we rather have people who are committing suicide, particularly to end their pain, be able to do so without a) much pain, preferably none, and b) greatly reduce the chance that they will harm others in their effort to kill themselves by giving them a controlled environment in which to do it in?
    We shouldn't help because it is our professional standard to save life, not end it. As I said, passive measures are okay with me if people have stated that wish in written and legal form. Otherwise, if you want to die, at least take the responsibility to do it to yourself.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  2. #112
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    We shouldn't help because it is our professional standard to save life, not end it. As I said, passive measures are okay with me if people have stated that wish in written and legal form. Otherwise, if you want to die, at least take the responsibility to do it to yourself.
    There are many in the medical profession that see their job as ending pain and suffering, not just saving lives.

    You can't save everyone. And sometimes trying to save everyone could cause more to die than could have been saved if you refocused the priorities.

    Doctors seem to get blinded sometimes in their effort to extend a person's life (since everyone eventually does die), and miss the more important thing of letting their patients experience life in the time they have.

    I'm not saying that efforts shouldn't be made to help people live longer, particularly when those people could live many more years of a happy, healthy or at least not very painful, life. But when there is a really good chance that you are just extending a person's suffering, it should be left up to the patient. And the patient should be well informed of what their real chances are, including the chance of their extended life being very painful.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  3. #113
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Doctors seem to get blinded sometimes in their effort to extend a person's life (since everyone eventually does die), and miss the more important thing of letting their patients experience life in the time they have.
    That is primarily because that is what the patient and/or family wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post

    I'm not saying that efforts shouldn't be made to help people live longer, particularly when those people could live many more years of a happy, healthy or at least not very painful, life. But when there is a really good chance that you are just extending a person's suffering, it should be left up to the patient. And the patient should be well informed of what their real chances are, including the chance of their extended life being very painful.
    I agree with the bolded, but a patient wanting to die should either do it himself, or not expect the medical profession to kill him pro-actively. I don't like to see suffering, and I have no qualms about giving drugs to help someone deal with the pain caused by some terminal diseases, but I an not willing to give someone a fatal dose of anything. If he wants someone to actively kill him, then he should either kill himself or find someone willing to do it for him without legal and ethical ramifications. My father died last summer of a terminal, rapidly-growing primary brain tumor. I would never have considered giving him a lethal dose of anything to hasten his death. I did, however, advocate for enough morphine to keep him comfortable at the end of his life.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  4. #114
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    Re: Right to die

    if one is suffering from a very painful deadly illness and wants to be saved ,i believe they must be saved .this decision may be against religious values,but a human having enough conscience and heart must help him reach the presence .

  5. #115
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    Re: Right to die

    Our hospital is 1 of 4 in our county. We see approx 2300 suicidal patients a year. I could count on a single hand the number of people attempting or expressing ideation that are doing so because of a 'terminal illness'-they simply arent that prevalent and where they DO exist, most of them manage to pull it off. Of the 2300 and those willing to receive help, the vast majority are referred to a therapist or treatment program and we never see them again. Of those unwilling to get help, we typically see them several times a year. Their 'suicide' attempts are seldom more than the occasional overdose of prescription meds followed by a long tearful "**** you, cruel world" text, email or letter.

    Advocating for the 'right' for those struggling with emotional duress to kill themselves...well...lets see...this last weekend we would have lost a 12 year old girl who was angry at her very destructive and bitter divorced parents. We would have lost an incredibly cute intelligent 16 year old girl who is carrying the guilt because she happens to be more attracted to girls than boys and is afraid to tell her parents. We would have lost another 15 year old boy who had his wee heart broken by 15 year old little girl. We would have lost an 8 year old who cant explain why but just wants to die (he cant...I can...his father is an absentee POS and his mother is an alcoholic and he is scared to death, angry, frustrated and doesnt know what to do about any of it because...oh yeah...he is 8). We would have lost a 45 year old woman who is also an alcoholic...her 3 children have grown up and left her and now she has no one to dote on and is confronted by the memories of being sexually assaulted at age 10 by her stepbrother and maybe more painfully...by the anger, abandonment, and betrayal she feels because her parents downplayed the acts and instead insisted the stepbrother was the one that REALLY needed the help and none of this would have been a problem had she just kept her mouth shut. We wouldnt have lost 35 year old manic sex addict...she wasnt REALLY suicidal. Her we will see a few dozen times this year. We wouldnt have lost our favorite 19 year old malingerer who claims to be mentally disordered and wants to jump in front of a train but really he is just a stupid kid raised by a dysfunctional mother and has no motivation to make changes in his life because there is always someones couch he can crash on, garage he can sleep in, or when it gets really tight...just say the magic words...I am going to...and the state takes care of him. We could have lost a whole lot of good people that really just need help and people to show them that there actually ARE other options and opportunities out there. Sometimes when you are enveloped in 'this' its kinda hard to see 'that'.

    I can cite about 2300 similar cases...a year...in one hospital...in one county.

    I get the 'right to die' argument for terminal patients...I really do. But advocating for the 'right to die' simplifies the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of cases annually of people suffering from something as 'curable' as guilt, shame, or a broken heart.

  6. #116
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    That is primarily because that is what the patient and/or family wants.
    Not always. Earlier in this thread, I described what happened to my grandmother. It was not my family that "urged" my grandmother to stay in the hospital her last few weeks of life, it was the doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I agree with the bolded, but a patient wanting to die should either do it himself, or not expect the medical profession to kill him pro-actively. I don't like to see suffering, and I have no qualms about giving drugs to help someone deal with the pain caused by some terminal diseases, but I an not willing to give someone a fatal dose of anything. If he wants someone to actively kill him, then he should either kill himself or find someone willing to do it for him without legal and ethical ramifications. My father died last summer of a terminal, rapidly-growing primary brain tumor. I would never have considered giving him a lethal dose of anything to hasten his death. I did, however, advocate for enough morphine to keep him comfortable at the end of his life.
    I'm not saying anyone should be forced to assist a person in suicide. But I also do not feel that it should be illegal or seen as an automatic ethical violation for someone to do so. It may violate your specific ethics, but that doesn't mean it is violating someone else's, even another medical worker's.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  7. #117
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Our hospital is 1 of 4 in our county. We see approx 2300 suicidal patients a year. I could count on a single hand the number of people attempting or expressing ideation that are doing so because of a 'terminal illness'-they simply arent that prevalent and where they DO exist, most of them manage to pull it off. Of the 2300 and those willing to receive help, the vast majority are referred to a therapist or treatment program and we never see them again. Of those unwilling to get help, we typically see them several times a year. Their 'suicide' attempts are seldom more than the occasional overdose of prescription meds followed by a long tearful "**** you, cruel world" text, email or letter.

    Advocating for the 'right' for those struggling with emotional duress to kill themselves...well...lets see...this last weekend we would have lost a 12 year old girl who was angry at her very destructive and bitter divorced parents. We would have lost an incredibly cute intelligent 16 year old girl who is carrying the guilt because she happens to be more attracted to girls than boys and is afraid to tell her parents. We would have lost another 15 year old boy who had his wee heart broken by 15 year old little girl. We would have lost an 8 year old who cant explain why but just wants to die (he cant...I can...his father is an absentee POS and his mother is an alcoholic and he is scared to death, angry, frustrated and doesnt know what to do about any of it because...oh yeah...he is 8). We would have lost a 45 year old woman who is also an alcoholic...her 3 children have grown up and left her and now she has no one to dote on and is confronted by the memories of being sexually assaulted at age 10 by her stepbrother and maybe more painfully...by the anger, abandonment, and betrayal she feels because her parents downplayed the acts and instead insisted the stepbrother was the one that REALLY needed the help and none of this would have been a problem had she just kept her mouth shut. We wouldnt have lost 35 year old manic sex addict...she wasnt REALLY suicidal. Her we will see a few dozen times this year. We wouldnt have lost our favorite 19 year old malingerer who claims to be mentally disordered and wants to jump in front of a train but really he is just a stupid kid raised by a dysfunctional mother and has no motivation to make changes in his life because there is always someones couch he can crash on, garage he can sleep in, or when it gets really tight...just say the magic words...I am going to...and the state takes care of him. We could have lost a whole lot of good people that really just need help and people to show them that there actually ARE other options and opportunities out there. Sometimes when you are enveloped in 'this' its kinda hard to see 'that'.

    I can cite about 2300 similar cases...a year...in one hospital...in one county.

    I get the 'right to die' argument for terminal patients...I really do. But advocating for the 'right to die' simplifies the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of cases annually of people suffering from something as 'curable' as guilt, shame, or a broken heart.

    I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating that anyone be allowed to commit suicide, especially not the cases that you note.

    I am talking about people who have chronic conditions that will not go away. People who have suffered for 20 years, people that have to take 17 pills a day, that can't get out of bed, that cry for one or two hours every day. People who are so debilitated by their disease that their quality of life sucks. We have this compassion for people with physical ailments, why not mental? They are just as debilitating. It's parity. There is no parity for mental health care because some people don't believe it is real, or that it can hurt just as much as physical ailments. There is no parity in caring for those will mental illness (which is another thread entirely). I would never advocate for compassionate suicide for someone suffering from something, as you state "'curable' as guilt, shame, or a broken heart"

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  8. #118
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are many in the medical profession that see their job as ending pain and suffering, not just saving lives.

    You can't save everyone. And sometimes trying to save everyone could cause more to die than could have been saved if you refocused the priorities.

    Doctors seem to get blinded sometimes in their effort to extend a person's life (since everyone eventually does die), and miss the more important thing of letting their patients experience life in the time they have.
    There is a difference on doing absolutely everything to keep someone alive and actually taking their life. I believe we waste far too much money in trying to extend people's lives in general. That is a seperate arguement though.

    I'm not saying that efforts shouldn't be made to help people live longer, particularly when those people could live many more years of a happy, healthy or at least not very painful, life. But when there is a really good chance that you are just extending a person's suffering, it should be left up to the patient.
    It is. Nobody can force you to undergo cancer treatement or something.

    And the patient should be well informed of what their real chances are, including the chance of their extended life being very painful.
    They are gave this information.

  9. #119
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I'm not saying anyone should be forced to assist a person in suicide. But I also do not feel that it should be illegal or seen as an automatic ethical violation for someone to do so. It may violate your specific ethics, but that doesn't mean it is violating someone else's, even another medical worker's.
    Many health care workers who took the lives of those they were supposed to be helping saw nothing ethically wrong with that.

  10. #120
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    Re: Right to die

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Many health care workers who took the lives of those they were supposed to be helping saw nothing ethically wrong with that.
    And I would say whether there was something ethically wrong with it would depend on whether the person wanted to die or not and whether or not the person actually was suffering.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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