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Death Penalty

Should there be a death penalty?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 47.0%
  • No

    Votes: 45 38.5%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    Votes: 17 14.5%

  • Total voters
    117
Only the guilty ones.

But how do you know you're actually executing the guilty ones? We've had numerous cases of innocents executed. And you don't have absolute knowledge. So in your lack of absolute knowledge, how do you know you're actually executing the guilty ones?
 
Your third point is incorrect. I believe most said that the would kill someone if they (seriously) hurt or killed someone they loved, or as they were trying to do so perhaps, but not necessarily if they tried. Obviously, trying to kill someone but not succeeding is not a death penalty crime.

Your fourth point is easily solved. A much briefer appeals process. For example, one automatic appeal and one review from state and federal supreme courts.

I believe he was saying that if you did kill that person -- after-- not during an attack, then you would be just as guilty and be a murderer too.

As for the appeals process, if we did not have those safeguards there are greater chances of innocent people being executed, is this fair?
 
An unemployed trigger happy serial killer goes on a shooting spree and kills 10 people. What is his punishment? Free food and lodging.

Jail, yes. It's not so much "free food and lodging", I mean, you aren't choosing to try to stay in jail are you? Free food and lodging, right? Must be SO much nicer in prison than out in the real world. So lets see you act out your conviction; go spend some time in jail. Get your free food and lodging, and then maybe come back and tell us how it compares to living outside of jail. Go on now.
 
None, but that's not the point, the murderer has proven that they cannot safely exist in society, and the death penalty ensures safety for everyone from any further actions of there's.

Life in prison surely serves the aggregate of society just as well, and without killing the individual thus removing the potential and inevitability of the State killing an innocent person through the exercise of the death penalty.
 
When we are born, we are all here for a small amount of time; if anyone foreshortens someone else's time, why shouldn't the same apply to them?

Because we're not monkeys. We're not mere animals without intelligence and conscious. We are humans, and we are capable of being more.
 
Let's show people killing is wrong by killing people!
 
Because we're not monkeys. We're not mere animals without intelligence and conscious. We are humans, and we are capable of being more.
Now if you could only convince the murderous among us of that we wouldnt have a need for the death penalty.
 
Now if you could only convince the murderous among us of that we wouldnt have a need for the death penalty.

Well if we could convince everyone, we wouldn't have crime. But given a large enough population, we are going to get crime and a percentage of that will be violent and include murder. It's only natural in a large society. But just because others have turned their back on their humanity doesn't mean that we have to do the same, yes?
 
But how do you know you're actually executing the guilty ones? We've had numerous cases of innocents executed. And you don't have absolute knowledge.
Name one, just one that we know was innocent. Obviously, I am precluding the speculations of anti-dp activists who have a very low standard of innocence as well as a political agenda. Just one.
 
Name one, just one that we know was innocent. Obviously, I am precluding the speculations of anti-dp activists who have a very low standard of innocence as well as a political agenda. Just one.

Speculations of what? You're not one of those "well if they were innocent, they wouldn't have been there in the first place" sort of folk, are you? Cause that would be unfortunate. There have been numerous occasions when people were killed under the Death Penalty for crimes they did not commit. Illinois stopped their death penalty after they found that over half the prisoners on death row were not guilty of the crime they were convicted of. Up to that point they had exonerated more death row inmates than executed.
 
Speculations of what? You're not one of those "well if they were innocent, they wouldn't have been there in the first place" sort of folk, are you? Cause that would be unfortunate. There have been numerous occasions when people were killed under the Death Penalty for crimes they did not commit. Illinois stopped their death penalty after they found that over half the prisoners on death row were not guilty of the crime they were convicted of. Up to that point they had exonerated more death row inmates than executed.
Just one, that's all. Show me!
 
Well if we could convince everyone, we wouldn't have crime. But given a large enough population, we are going to get crime and a percentage of that will be violent and include murder. It's only natural in a large society. But just because others have turned their back on their humanity doesn't mean that we have to do the same, yes?
I dont think we surrender our humanity by destroying evil. Saying, in effect, that if you intentionally take the life of an innocent you have forfeited your own, shows the value we place upon innocent human life. If a dog mauls a human, we put the dog down. There is less moral justification for that than putting down a murderous human.
 
Name one, just one that we know was innocent. Obviously, I am precluding the speculations of anti-dp activists who have a very low standard of innocence as well as a political agenda. Just one.

Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin were executed via the electric chair in 1915 in South Carolina, they were pardoned in October 2009.

Josefa "Chipita" Rodriguez was convicted of murder and hanged in Texas in 1863. A century later, on June 13, 1985, the Texas Legislature exonerated her.

Check out Larry Griffin or Cameron Todd Willingham. These are two of the strongest cases.

You are asking that people prove a negative.

What about all the people who have been exonerated before execution and released from death row. Are close calls OK?
 
Just one, that's all. Show me!

1. Cameron Todd Willingham—In 1992, Willingham was convicted of arson murder in Texas. He was believed to have intentionally set a fire that killed his three kids. In 2004, he was put to death. Unfortunately, the Texas Forensic Science Commission later found that the evidence was misinterpreted, and they concluded that none of the evidence used against Willingham was valid. As it turns out, the fire really was accidental.

2. Ruben Cantu—Cantu was 17 at the time the crime he was alleged of committing took place. Cantu was convicted of capital murder, and in 1993, the Texas teen was executed. About 12 years after his death, investigations show that Cantu likely didn’t commit the murder. The lone eyewitness recanted his testimony, and Cantu’s co-defendant later admitted he allowed his friend to be falsely accused. He says Cantu wasn’t even there the night of the murder.

3. Larry Griffin—Griffin was put to death in 1995 for the 1981 murder of Quintin Moss, a Missouri drug dealer. Griffin always maintained his innocence, and now, evidence seems to indicate he was telling the truth. The first police officer on the scene now says the eyewitness account was false, even though the officer supported the claims during the trial. Another eyewitness who was wounded during the attack was never contacted during the trial, and he says Griffin wasn’t present at the crime scene that night.

4. Carlos DeLuna—In 1989, DeLuna was executed for the stabbing of a Texas convenience store clerk. Almost 20 years later, Chicago Tribune uncovered evidence that shows DeLuna was likely innocent. The evidence showed that Carlos Hernandez, a man who even confessed to the murder many times, actually did the crime.

5. David Wayne Spence—Spence was put to death in 1997 for the murder of three teenagers in Texas. He was supposedly hired by a convenience store clerk to kill someone else, but he allegedly killed the wrong people by mistake. The supervising police lieutenant said “I do not think David Spence committed this crime.” The lead homicide detective agreed, saying “My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved.”

6. Jesse Tafero—In 1976, Tafero was convicted of murdering a state trooper. He and Sonia Jacobs were both sentenced to death for the crime. The main evidence used to convict them was testimony by someone else who was involved in the crime, ex-convict Walter Rhodes. Rhodes gave this testimony in exchange for a life sentence. In 1990, Tafero was put to death. Two years later, his companion Jacobs was released due to a lack of evidence…the same evidence used to put Tafero to death.

7 & 8. Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin— The oldest case on this list dates back to 1915. The Griffin brothers, two black men, were convicted of the murder of a white man. The reason they were convicted is because Monk Stevenson, another black man suspected of committing the murder, pointed to the brothers as having been responsible. He later admitted the reason he blamed them is because they were wealthy, and he assumed they had the money to beat the charges. The Griffin brothers were completely innocent, but they were put to death nonetheless.
 
I dont think we surrender our humanity by destroying evil.

Depends on how we're defining evil here. Particularly when we have use of a prison system which provides the same amount of relative "safety" to society on whole as does the death penalty.

Saying, in effect, that if you intentionally take the life of an innocent you have forfeited your own, shows the value we place upon innocent human life. If a dog mauls a human, we put the dog down. There is less moral justification for that than putting down a murderous human.

A dog isn't human and thus is not morally equivalent. And by using the death penalty, you KNOW that eventually you're going to consume innocent life. So you really aren't showing the value you place upon innocent human life because you are invoking a system which takes it.
 
1. Cameron Todd Willingham—In 1992, Willingham was convicted of arson murder in Texas. He was believed to have intentionally set a fire that killed his three kids. In 2004, he was put to death. Unfortunately, the Texas Forensic Science Commission later found that the evidence was misinterpreted, and they concluded that none of the evidence used against Willingham was valid. As it turns out, the fire really was accidental.

2. Ruben Cantu—Cantu was 17 at the time the crime he was alleged of committing took place. Cantu was convicted of capital murder, and in 1993, the Texas teen was executed. About 12 years after his death, investigations show that Cantu likely didn’t commit the murder. The lone eyewitness recanted his testimony, and Cantu’s co-defendant later admitted he allowed his friend to be falsely accused. He says Cantu wasn’t even there the night of the murder.

3. Larry Griffin—Griffin was put to death in 1995 for the 1981 murder of Quintin Moss, a Missouri drug dealer. Griffin always maintained his innocence, and now, evidence seems to indicate he was telling the truth. The first police officer on the scene now says the eyewitness account was false, even though the officer supported the claims during the trial. Another eyewitness who was wounded during the attack was never contacted during the trial, and he says Griffin wasn’t present at the crime scene that night.

4. Carlos DeLuna—In 1989, DeLuna was executed for the stabbing of a Texas convenience store clerk. Almost 20 years later, Chicago Tribune uncovered evidence that shows DeLuna was likely innocent. The evidence showed that Carlos Hernandez, a man who even confessed to the murder many times, actually did the crime.

5. David Wayne Spence—Spence was put to death in 1997 for the murder of three teenagers in Texas. He was supposedly hired by a convenience store clerk to kill someone else, but he allegedly killed the wrong people by mistake. The supervising police lieutenant said “I do not think David Spence committed this crime.” The lead homicide detective agreed, saying “My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved.”

6. Jesse Tafero—In 1976, Tafero was convicted of murdering a state trooper. He and Sonia Jacobs were both sentenced to death for the crime. The main evidence used to convict them was testimony by someone else who was involved in the crime, ex-convict Walter Rhodes. Rhodes gave this testimony in exchange for a life sentence. In 1990, Tafero was put to death. Two years later, his companion Jacobs was released due to a lack of evidence…the same evidence used to put Tafero to death.

7 & 8. Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin— The oldest case on this list dates back to 1915. The Griffin brothers, two black men, were convicted of the murder of a white man. The reason they were convicted is because Monk Stevenson, another black man suspected of committing the murder, pointed to the brothers as having been responsible. He later admitted the reason he blamed them is because they were wealthy, and he assumed they had the money to beat the charges. The Griffin brothers were completely innocent, but they were put to death nonetheless.

Ikari,

These are all good cases that stand a chance of having their innocence proven (the Griffin brothers were pardoned after execution). That has not happened yet. One thing to think is why would the government, especially the prosecutor's office (which is most likely to do the investigating), admit that there has been a wrongful execution?
 
I dont think we surrender our humanity by destroying evil. Saying, in effect, that if you intentionally take the life of an innocent you have forfeited your own, shows the value we place upon innocent human life. If a dog mauls a human, we put the dog down. There is less moral justification for that than putting down a murderous human.

If you kill even one innocent person was the justification for killing thousands of guilty worth it?
 
1. Cameron Todd Willingham—In 1992, Willingham was convicted of arson murder in Texas. He was believed to have intentionally set a fire that killed his three kids. In 2004, he was put to death. Unfortunately, the Texas Forensic Science Commission later found that the evidence was misinterpreted, and they concluded that none of the evidence used against Willingham was valid. As it turns out, the fire really was accidental.

2. Ruben Cantu—Cantu was 17 at the time the crime he was alleged of committing took place. Cantu was convicted of capital murder, and in 1993, the Texas teen was executed. About 12 years after his death, investigations show that Cantu likely didn’t commit the murder. The lone eyewitness recanted his testimony, and Cantu’s co-defendant later admitted he allowed his friend to be falsely accused. He says Cantu wasn’t even there the night of the murder.

3. Larry Griffin—Griffin was put to death in 1995 for the 1981 murder of Quintin Moss, a Missouri drug dealer. Griffin always maintained his innocence, and now, evidence seems to indicate he was telling the truth. The first police officer on the scene now says the eyewitness account was false, even though the officer supported the claims during the trial. Another eyewitness who was wounded during the attack was never contacted during the trial, and he says Griffin wasn’t present at the crime scene that night.

4. Carlos DeLuna—In 1989, DeLuna was executed for the stabbing of a Texas convenience store clerk. Almost 20 years later, Chicago Tribune uncovered evidence that shows DeLuna was likely innocent. The evidence showed that Carlos Hernandez, a man who even confessed to the murder many times, actually did the crime.

5. David Wayne Spence—Spence was put to death in 1997 for the murder of three teenagers in Texas. He was supposedly hired by a convenience store clerk to kill someone else, but he allegedly killed the wrong people by mistake. The supervising police lieutenant said “I do not think David Spence committed this crime.” The lead homicide detective agreed, saying “My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved.”

6. Jesse Tafero—In 1976, Tafero was convicted of murdering a state trooper. He and Sonia Jacobs were both sentenced to death for the crime. The main evidence used to convict them was testimony by someone else who was involved in the crime, ex-convict Walter Rhodes. Rhodes gave this testimony in exchange for a life sentence. In 1990, Tafero was put to death. Two years later, his companion Jacobs was released due to a lack of evidence…the same evidence used to put Tafero to death.

7 & 8. Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin— The oldest case on this list dates back to 1915. The Griffin brothers, two black men, were convicted of the murder of a white man. The reason they were convicted is because Monk Stevenson, another black man suspected of committing the murder, pointed to the brothers as having been responsible. He later admitted the reason he blamed them is because they were wealthy, and he assumed they had the money to beat the charges. The Griffin brothers were completely innocent, but they were put to death nonetheless.
Going back a century, I will concede that. The rest are cases championed by anit-dp activist who search for anyone who is to be executed where there might me some discrepancy in the trial, ignoring all other evidence. This in no way proves innocence. Once convicted, the presumed innocent doctrine obviously no longer applies. In fact it is telling of the weakness of the argument that Willingham is the poster boy of the anti-dp crowd. He would have easily been convicted even without the arson forensics. The are courts and objective people do not automatically accept the findings of dp activists.
 
Ikari,

These are all good cases that stand a chance of having their innocence proven (the Griffin brothers were pardoned after execution). That has not happened yet. One thing to think is why would the government, especially the prosecutor's office (which is most likely to do the investigating), admit that there has been a wrongful execution?

This list contains names of people who were found guilty of capital crimes and placed on death row who were later found to be wrongly convicted. Some people were exonerated posthumously.

United States
[edit] 1970-1979

1973

1. David Keaton Florida (Keaton v. State, 273 So.2d 385 (1973)). Convicted 1971.

1974

2. Samuel A. Poole North Carolina (State v. Poole, 203 S.E.2d 786 (N.C. 1974)). Convicted 1973.

1975

3. Wilbert Lee Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1963.

4. Freddie Pitts Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1965.

5. James Creamer Georgia (Emmett v. Ricketts, 397 F. Supp 1025 (N.D. Ga. 1975)). Convicted 1973.

6. Christopher Spicer North Carolina (State v. Spicer, 204 SE 2d 641 (1974)). Convicted 1973.

1976

7. Thomas Gladish New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

8. Richard Greer New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

9. Ronald Keine New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

10. Clarence Smith New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

1977

11. Delbert Tibbs Florida. Convicted 1974.

1978

12. Earl Charles Georgia. Convicted 1975.

13. Jonathan Treadway Arizona. Convicted 1975.

1979

14. Gary Beeman Ohio. Convicted 1976.

[edit] 1980-1989

1980

15. Jerry Banks.
16. Larry Hicks.

1981

17. Charles Ray Giddens.
18. Michael Linder.
19. Johnny Ross.
20. Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham.

1982

21. Annibal Jaramillo.
22. Lawyer Johnson Massachusetts (Commonwealth v. Johnson, 429 N.E.2d 726 (1982)). Convicted 1971.

1985

23. Larry Fisher.

1986

24. Anthony Brown.
25. Neil Ferber.
26. Clifford Henry Bowen.

1987

27. Joseph Green Brown.
28. Perry Cobb.
29. Darby (Williams) Tillis.
30. Vernon McManus.
31. Anthony Ray Peek.
32. Juan Ramos.
33. Robert Wallace.

1988

34. Richard Neal Jones.
35. Willie Brown.
36. Larry Troy.

1989

37. Randall Dale Adams Texas (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281) (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1977.[3][4]
38. Robert Cox.
39. James Richardson.
On April 8, 2010, former death row inmate Timothy B. Hennis, once exonerated in 1989, was reconvicted of a triple murder, thereby dropping him from the list of those exonerated. [1] Sentenced to death by military court-martial 15 April 2010

[edit] 1990-1999

1990

40. Clarence Brandley Texas (Ex Parte Brandley, 781 S.W.2d 886 (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1981.
41. John C. Skelton.
42. Dale Johnston.
43. Jimmy Lee Mathers.

1991

44. Gary Nelson.
45. Bradley P. Scott.
46. Charles Smith.

1992

47. Jay C. Smith Pennsylvania. Convicted 1986.

1993

48. Kirk Bloodsworth Maryland. Convicted 1984. Exonerated 1993; first prisoner to be exonerated by DNA evidence. Serving life in prison when exonerated, as earlier death sentence was overturned.
49. Federico M. Macias.
50. Walter McMillan.
51. Gregory R. Wilhoit Oklahoma. Convicted 1987. Along with Ron Williamson, Wilhoit later became the subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town.[5]
52. James Robison.
53. Muneer Deeb.

1994

54. Andrew Golden.

1995

55. Adolph Munson.
56. Robert Charles Cruz.
57. Rolando Cruz.
58. Alejandro Hernández.
59. Sabrina Butler.

1996

60. Joseph Burrows. Joseph Burrows was released from death row after his attorney Kathleen Zellner persuaded the real killer to confess at the post-conviction hearing.
61. Verneal Jimerson.
62. Dennis Williams.
63. Roberto Miranda.
64. Gary Gauger
65. Troy Lee Jones.
66. Carl Lawson.
67. David Wayne Grannis.

1997

68. Ricardo Aldape Guerra.
69. Benjamin Harris.
70. Robert Hayes.
71. Christopher McCrimmon.
72. Randall Padgett.
It is later revealed, through additional research by Prof. Samuel Gross of the University of Michigan, that though James Bo Cochran was acquitted of murder, he did plead guilty to a robbery charge in an agreement made with prosecutors prior to his release. Therefore, Cochran is no longer on the list of those exonerated from death row. [2]

1998

73. Robert Lee Miller, Jr.
74. Curtis Kyles.

1999

75. Shareef Cousin Louisiana (Louisiana v. Cousin, 710 So. 2d 1065 (1998)). Convicted 1996.
76. Anthony Porter Illinois. Convicted 1983.
77. Steven Smith.
78. Ronald Williamson Oklahoma. Convicted 1988. Along with Gregory R. Wilhoit, Williamson later became the inspiration for and subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town.[5]
79. Ronald Jones.
80. Clarence Dexter, Jr.
81. Warren Douglas Manning.
82. Alfred Rivera.

[edit] 2000-2009

2000

83. Steve Manning.
84. Eric Clemmons.
85. Joseph Nahume Green.
86. Earl Washington Virginia (pardoned). Convicted 1994 (1984, without life sentence).
87. William Nieves.
88. Frank Lee Smith (died prior to exoneration).
89. Michael Graham.
90. Albert Burrell.
91. Oscar Lee Morris.

2001

92. Peter Limone.
93. Gary Drinkard.
94. Joachin José Martínez.
95. Jeremy Sheets.
96. Charles Fain.

2002

97. Juan Roberto Melendez-Colon Florida. Convicted 1984.
98. Ray Krone Arizona (State v. Krone, 897 P.2d 621 (Ariz. 1995) (en banc)). Convicted 1992.
99. Thomas Kimbell, Jr.
100. Larry Osborne.

2003

101. Aaron Patterson.
102. Madison Hobley.
103. Leroy Orange.
104. Stanley Howard.
105. Rudolph Holton.
106. Lemuel Prion.
107. Wesley Quick.
108. John Thompson.
109. Timothy Howard Ohio. Convicted 1976.
110. Gary Lamar James Ohio. Convicted 1976.
111. Joseph Amrine.
112. Nicholas Yarris Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania v. Yarris, No 690-OF1982, Court of Common Pleas, Delaware County, September 3, 2003. Order vacating conviction). Convicted 1982.

2004

113. Alan Gell.
114. Gordon Steidl.
115. Laurence Adams.
116. Dan L. Bright.
117. Ryan Matthews.
118. Ernest Ray Willis.

2005

119. Derrick Jamison.
120. Harold Wilson.

2006

121. John Ballard.

2007

122. Curtis McCarty.
123. Michael McCormick.
124. Jonathon Hoffman.

2008

125. Kennedy Brewer Mississippi. Convicted 1995.
126. Glen Edward Chapman North Carolina. Convicted 1995.
127. Levon "Bo" Jones[6] North Carolina. Convicted 1993.
128. Michael Blair Texas.

2009

129. Nathson Fields Illinois. Convicted 1986.
130. Paul House Tennessee. Convicted 1986.
131. Daniel Wade Moore Alabama. Convicted 2002.
132. Ronald Kitchen Illinois. Convicted 1988.
133. Herman Lindsey Florida. Convicted 2006.
134. Michael Toney Texas. Convicted 1999. (Toney later died in a car accident on October 3, 2009, just one month and a day after his exoneration.).[7]
135. Yancy Douglas Oklahoma. Convicted 1997.
136. Paris Powell Oklahoma. Convicted 1997.
137. Robert Springsteen Texas. Convicted 2001.

[edit] 2010-2019

2010

138. Joe D'Ambrosio Ohio. Convicted 1989. (While he was freed in 2010, but not yet exonerated, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal by the state of Ohio challenging the unconditional writ of habeas corpus and bar to D'Ambrosio's re-prosecution on January 23, 2012, nearly 2 years later, making D'Ambrosio the 140th death row exoneree since 1973. [3])
139. Anthony Graves Texas. Convicted 1994.

2011

140. Gussie Vann Tennessee. Convicted 1994.
 
Going back a century, I will concede that. The rest are cases championed by anit-dp activist who search for anyone who is to be executed where there might me some discrepancy in the trial, ignoring all other evidence. This in no way proves innocence. Once convicted, the presumed innocent doctrine obviously no longer applies. In fact it is telling of the weakness of the argument that Willingham is the poster boy of the anti-dp crowd. He would have easily been convicted even without the arson forensics. The are courts and objective people do not automatically accept the findings of dp activists.

So you're fine with discrepancies in trials so long as you get to execute the guy, eh? K. For me, it needs to be clean start to finish as that's the principles of our Republic. But whatever. The 2004 case wasn't any of that either, the fire was ruled an accident AFTER they killed a man for the crime.
 
This list contains names of people who were found guilty of capital crimes and placed on death row who were later found to be wrongly convicted. Some people were exonerated posthumously.
See, the system works. Btw, it is conventional to provide a link, assuming of course you did not compile the list yourself in the last 2 minutes.
 
See, the system works. Btw, it is conventional to provide a link, assuming of course you did not compile the list yourself in the last 2 minutes.

Some were executed still, and look at all the names of the people on death row who were there for crimes they didn't commit. This is just a list of the ones we know about, the ones we're told about. It's likely greater than the list. This shows a disturbing trend in death penalty cases where it seems rather easy to be convicted of a capital crime without having committed the crime.
 
Going back a century, I will concede that. The rest are cases championed by anit-dp activist who search for anyone who is to be executed where there might me some discrepancy in the trial, ignoring all other evidence. This in no way proves innocence. Once convicted, the presumed innocent doctrine obviously no longer applies. In fact it is telling of the weakness of the argument that Willingham is the poster boy of the anti-dp crowd. He would have easily been convicted even without the arson forensics. The are courts and objective people do not automatically accept the findings of dp activists.

You asked for one and you got one.

"Once convicted, the presumed innocent doctrine obviously no longer applies" Now it sounds like you believe we should not even be trying to exonerate others.
 
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