View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #711
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    Re: Death Penalty

    From your source listed above "Like the "Principle of Permissible Harm", the "Doctrine of Productive Purity" is an attempt to provide a deontological prescription for determining the circumstances in which people are permitted to act in a way that harms others."

    "Some deontologists are moral absolutists, believing that certain actions are absolutely right or wrong, regardless of the intentions behind them as well as the consequences."

    ----You chose one of the most criticized philosophies of ethics to prove your point. You forgot about the moral absolutists and the critiques of deontology that it is incoherent, subjective and leaves no guides for prioritizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    "There is not a single ill-doer who could not be turned to some good. The State has no right to put to death, even for the sake of making an example, any one whom it can leave alive without danger."-- From Book II, your source above
    Last edited by taxigirl; 03-20-12 at 08:58 PM.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  2. #712
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The one factor that is missing from all of the studies (and you may have already pointed this out) is that they have ZERO DATA on those that did not commit a murder because they were afraid of getting the death penalty. I don't commit crimes or stay within the bounds of the law because the DP and jail act as a deterrent. IF somebody molested or killed my daughter the ONLY THING that would stop me from killing that person with extreme prejudice would be not wanted to be put to death myself and depriving my other daughter of her father. Deterrent. But you will never find me in a study since I will never intentionally kill a person.
    You cannot prove a negative.

    You are showing your reluctance to look at well-performed studies because they can't address a negative.

    They can show that crime rates go up and down around the time of an execution, that rates are different once the DP is instituted or put on hold or outlawed.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  3. #713
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    From your source listed above "Like the "Principle of Permissible Harm", the "Doctrine of Productive Purity" is an attempt to provide a deontological prescription for determining the circumstances in which people are permitted to act in a way that harms others."

    "Some deontologists are moral absolutists, believing that certain actions are absolutely right or wrong, regardless of the intentions behind them as well as the consequences."

    ----You chose one of the most criticized philosophies of ethics to prove your point. You forgot about the moral absolutists and the critiques of deontology that it is incoherent, subjective and leaves no guides for prioritizing.
    There is no need to prioritize and there is nothing wrong with the ethical position. Critiques abound...

    "There is not a single ill-doer who could not be turned to some good. The State has no right to put to death, even for the sake of making an example, any one whom it can leave alive without danger."-- From Book II, your source above
    You are taking that part our of context and need to provide the rest.

    We may add that frequent punishments are always a sign of weakness or remissness on the part of the government. There is not a single ill-doer who could not be turned to some good. The State has no right to put to death, even for the sake of making an example, any one whom it can leave alive without danger.

    The right of pardoning or exempting the guilty from a penalty imposed by the law and pronounced by the judge belongs only to the authority which is superior to both judge and law, i.e., the Sovereign; each its right in this matter is far from clear, and the cases for exercising it are extremely rare. In a well-governed State, there are few punishments, not because there are many pardons, but because criminals are rare; it is when a State is in decay that the multitude of crimes is a guarantee of impunity. Under the Roman Republic, neither the Senate nor the Consuls ever attempted to pardon; even the people never did so, though it sometimes revoked its own decision. Frequent pardons mean that crime will soon need them no longer, and no one can help seeing whither that leads. But I feel my heart protesting and restraining my pen; let us leave these questions to the just man who has never offended, and would himself stand in no need of pardon.


    All of this backs up my original post:

    Again, every malefactor, by attacking social rights, becomes on forfeit a rebel and a traitor to his country; by violating its laws be ceases to be a member of it; he even makes war upon it. In such a case the preservation of the State is inconsistent with his own, and one or the other must perish; in putting the guilty to death, we slay not so much the citizen as an enemy. The trial and the judgment are the proofs that he has broken the social treaty, and is in consequence no longer a member of the State. Since, then, he has recognised himself to be such by living there, he must be removed by exile as a violator of the compact, or by death as a public enemy; for such an enemy is not a moral person, but merely a man; and in such a case the right of war is to kill the vanquished.

    Rousseau: Social Contract: Book II
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  4. #714
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    You cannot prove a negative.

    You are showing your reluctance to look at well-performed studies because they can't address a negative.

    They can show that crime rates go up and down around the time of an execution, that rates are different once the DP is instituted or put on hold or outlawed.
    I know you can't prove a negative and that is why the studies are flawed... the same issues revolves in the religious debates. You can use the studies as an indicator and as long as you know that they are not absolute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  5. #715
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You keep throwing out these illogical and fallicious arguments... we are not talking about race or economic status and I have never argued that the system is flawless.

    Irrational; capricious.

    The term arbitrary describes a course of action or a decision that is not based on reason or judgment but on personal will or discretion without regard to rules or standards.

    An arbitrary decision is one made without regard for the facts and circumstances presented, and it connotes a disregard of the evidence.


    arbitrary legal definition of arbitrary. arbitrary synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
    You asked: How do you get arbitrarily out of it?
    I responded: Arbitrarily because the rules are not applied uniformly and without bias and they never could be.

    I will now add: Those rules are not applied uniformly and without bias because of race / economic status etc.... this is addition to allowing particular people instead of (maybe a board) decide, shows that the DP is applied arbitrarily

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  6. #716
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    There is no need to prioritize and there is nothing wrong with the ethical position. Critiques abound...

    You are taking that part our of context and need to provide the rest.

    We may add that frequent punishments are always a sign of weakness or remissness on the part of the government. There is not a single ill-doer who could not be turned to some good. The State has no right to put to death, even for the sake of making an example, any one whom it can leave alive without danger.

    The right of pardoning or exempting the guilty from a penalty imposed by the law and pronounced by the judge belongs only to the authority which is superior to both judge and law, i.e., the Sovereign; each its right in this matter is far from clear, and the cases for exercising it are extremely rare. In a well-governed State, there are few punishments, not because there are many pardons, but because criminals are rare; it is when a State is in decay that the multitude of crimes is a guarantee of impunity. Under the Roman Republic, neither the Senate nor the Consuls ever attempted to pardon; even the people never did so, though it sometimes revoked its own decision. Frequent pardons mean that crime will soon need them no longer, and no one can help seeing whither that leads. But I feel my heart protesting and restraining my pen; let us leave these questions to the just man who has never offended, and would himself stand in no need of pardon.


    All of this backs up my original post:

    Again, every malefactor, by attacking social rights, becomes on forfeit a rebel and a traitor to his country; by violating its laws be ceases to be a member of it; he even makes war upon it. In such a case the preservation of the State is inconsistent with his own, and one or the other must perish; in putting the guilty to death, we slay not so much the citizen as an enemy. The trial and the judgment are the proofs that he has broken the social treaty, and is in consequence no longer a member of the State. Since, then, he has recognised himself to be such by living there, he must be removed by exile as a violator of the compact, or by death as a public enemy; for such an enemy is not a moral person, but merely a man; and in such a case the right of war is to kill the vanquished.

    Rousseau: Social Contract: Book II
    You are arguing that his belief that there is no man who cannot be redeemed is irrelevant because he also says that these punishments should be few in number? does that mean you think they are few in number in the US?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  7. #717
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    You asked: How do you get arbitrarily out of it?
    I responded: Arbitrarily because the rules are not applied uniformly and without bias and they never could be.

    I will now add: Those rules are not applied uniformly and without bias because of race / economic status etc.... this is addition to allowing particular people instead of (maybe a board) decide, shows that the DP is applied arbitrarily
    You have to show how Judges are making decisions without regard to rules or standards. You aren't. You haven't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  8. #718
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    You are arguing that his belief that there is no man who cannot be redeemed is irrelevant because he also says that these punishments should be few in number? does that mean you think they are few in number in the US?
    Straw Man.

    We are not arguing the current US system... we are arguing about the notion or idea of the Death Penalty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  9. #719
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You have to show how Judges are making decisions without regard to rules or standards. You aren't. You haven't.
    Here are two specific cases and three studies on judicial bias.

    Capital Conviction Overturned After Federal Court Finds Judicial Bias Against Defendant | Death Penalty Information Center
    Appeals panel faults judge in death-penalty case
    http://eji.org/eji/files/Override_Report.pdf
    http://eji.org/eji/files/07.24.08%20...g%20Judges.pdf
    http://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/...&context=wlulr

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  10. #720
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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