View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #691
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Mensch is using the correct legal terminology (legalese). Arbitrariness in a legal judgement is a decision made at the discretion of the judge, not one that is fixed by law. When the death penalty is a possibility, the judge decides yes or no, when it comes to sentencing the judge decides yes or no.
    As long as the Judge is restricted by the law and the charges applied it isn't arbitrary. Arbitrary would be that the Judge could sentence any person convicted of any crime to death and that is not the case. If I am convicted of murder and the DP was not being sought the Judge cannot sentence me to death. There are restrictions. End of story.
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  2. #692
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You put in bold the wrong part... without restriction is the pertinent part. They are restricted within the bounds of the law. The Judge cannot put somebody to death that has not been brought up on the correct charges and without having the DA seeking the DP. It isn't arbitrary.
    The fact is, when it comes time to sentence, is the final decision made by the prosecutors or the judge? It is made by the judge. What you brought up are not restrictions. They are conditions which must be met before the final decision can be made. But when the final decision is made, it is done so by a single individual who can arbitrarily decide to put someone to death, put someone away for life, or hand out the minimum sentence.

  3. #693
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    "we uphold life as the most important"
    but, we also make elaborate plans to take away life we deem not important

    integrity
    I edited that last word for you...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  4. #694
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The police DO NOT DECIDE. They can NOT arrest a person that is not guilty of a crime. If they purposely move slow or ignore evidence then the police are guilty of a crime. The DA can have the suspect arrested even if the police don't think that they have the evidence needed. That is how the law works. I don't care how you try to manipulate the facts... you are wrong.
    So the police have never ignored evidence, never planted evidence, never clouded the issues....
    You that is untrue.

    As for prosecutors:

    Regrettably, the evidence is clear that prosecutorial discretion is systematically exercised to the disadvantage of black and Hispanic Americans. Prosecutors are not, by and large, bigoted. But as with police activity, prosecutorial judgment is shaped by a set of self-perpetuating racial assumptions.
    Chapter Two: Race and Prosecutorial Discretion - The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
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    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  5. #695
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    The fact is, when it comes time to sentence, is the final decision made by the prosecutors or the judge? It is made by the judge. What you brought up are not restrictions. They are conditions which must be met before the final decision can be made. But when the final decision is made, it is done so by a single individual who can arbitrarily decide to put someone to death, put someone away for life, or hand out the minimum sentence.
    Semantics...

    Main Entry: restriction  [ri-strik-shuhn] Show IPA/rɪˈstrɪkʃən/ Show Spelled
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: limit
    Synonyms: ball and chain, bounds, brake, catch, check, circumscription, condition, confinement, constraint, containment, contraction, control, cramp, curb, custody, demarcation, excess baggage, fine print, glitch*, grain of salt, handicap, hang-up, inhibition, limitation, limits, lock*, no-no, qualification, regulation, reservation, restraint, rule, small difficulty, stint, stipulation, stricture, string, stumbling block


    Restrictions Synonyms, Restrictions Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  6. #696
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I edited that last word for you...
    do you see the hypocrisy in your statement. Why is it ethical to "uphold life as most important" and then add an exception to kill some of those lives?

    How is determining which life has value ethical?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  7. #697
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    So the police have never ignored evidence, never planted evidence, never clouded the issues....
    You that is untrue.

    As for prosecutors:



    Chapter Two: Race and Prosecutorial Discretion - The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights
    Of course they have and I never indicated that they didn't... I just said that if they did it is illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  8. #698
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Well this is just subjective. For me avenging my nieces would be far more honorable than letting the guy go.
    No one is suggesting we "let him go." But if you're violent enough to torture another human being, how does that make you more honorable than the perp?

    It does neither. If you have the schematic to make half a computer then by the time you are done using that schematic you still don't have a fully functioning computer. As such it could be considered as not even being a computer. Especially since the other half of the schematic that you don't have could change the function of something in the part of the schematic that you do have.
    You can't compare subjective social science to computer science.

    Or put another way if you walk into a room where someone is kneeling over a dead body and they have blood on them does that automatically make them the killer? Or is it possible that the person just found the dead person and had tried to keep them alive or revive them instead? When you only have half the information it is easy to assume that the person is the killer and not the failed savior.
    That fact regarding a person kneeling over the dead body with blood on his hands WOULD HAVE TO be considered in court. You simply cannot ignore it, just like you cannot ignore the fact that violent crime is not lower in states with a DP. It may not be the smoking gun of evidence, but it definitely must be considered.

    In otherwords an incomplete fact is not a fact at all...but a theory at best.
    A statistic is not a theory. The only one proposing a hypothesis (less reputable than a theory) is you.

    Nor can you prove a positive with only half the information. As such you can't just claim that it isn't a deterrent.
    Let me try and explain it. "Death penalty is a deterrence" is a claim not based on fact. "Death penalty is not a deterrence" is a claim that originates from a lack of evidence proving that the DP is, in fact, a deterrence. You can't prove a negative with evidence because the evidence is non-existant. It's very much like proving Santa Clauses doesn't exist. If Santa Clause does exist, you would be able to provide evidence of its existence. If Santa Clause does not existence, it would be impossible to provide an absence of evidence to prove what doesn't exist.

  9. #699
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    do you see the hypocrisy in your statement. Why is it ethical to "uphold life as most important" and then add an exception to kill some of those lives?

    How is determining which life has value ethical?
    explains the rightness of actions in terms of the goodness of the state of affairs that occurs because of that action. If some action genuinely brings about greater good in the world, then it is a right action, and this rightness is independent of the nature of the action or the intentions of the person carrying out the action.

    Deontological ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Again, every rogue who criminously attacks social rights becomes, by his wrong, a rebel and a traitor to his fatherland. By contravening its laws, he ceases to be one of its citizens: he even wages war against it. In such circumstances, the State and he cannot both be saved: one or the other must perish. In killing the criminal, we destroy not so much a citizen as an enemy. The trial and judgements are proofs that he has broken the Social Contract, and so is no longer a member of the State.

    In J.J. Rousseau's The Social Contract written in 1762

    Rousseau: Social Contract
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  10. #700
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The judge does not make the sentence. They must follow the guidelines set forth by society.
    Yes, the judge does make the sentence. As I said, in certain cases, the death penalty would be restricted. But when it is an option, that means the judge is faced with an option to either execute the convicted or to put him/her away for x amount of years. At that point, the only thing restricting him is his own conscience.

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