View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #621
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    If they are so sure what we are doing is right, if the government is so sure why they are doing is ethical (from a situational view, utilitarian, cultural, authoritarian or any other ethical philosophy) why can't we see it? By hiding it, it seems that it is shameful. The government won't even tell us about the preparation of the prisoner before the execution, when they still used the electric chair they didn't talk about the process either. Why? Because they know it is wrong and because of the public actually knew / saw what happened they would be disgusted and the support for the death penalty would wane.
    That is untrue. There is an entire book turned into a documentary which details execution procedures in one state.

    lethal injection protocol

  2. #622
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Yes we do, but the "public" is limited to a special few. Victim's families, attorneys, police involved in the case and families of the one being put to death. My point is that they are not public to the general public who vote for the candidates that support the death penalty, the ones chanting about killing. If they are so sure what we are doing is right, if the government is so sure why they are doing is ethical (from a situational view, utilitarian, cultural, authoritarian or any other ethical philosophy) why can't we see it? By hiding it, it seems that it is shameful. The government won't even tell us about the preparation of the prisoner before the execution, when they still used the electric chair they didn't talk about the process either. Why? Because they know it is wrong and because of the public actually knew / saw what happened they would be disgusted and the support for the death penalty would wane.
    I think you underestimate human nature, both the good and the bad. If what you say is true then there wouldn't be a thousand plus years of documented hangings, beheadings etc etc of which were public and that humans often cheered for those things to happen. And they did so for at least two reasons.

    One being the darker side, blood lust. Humans are by nature a blood thirsty race. There has yet to be one single day in documented history where someone, somewhere wasn't killed by another human.

    The other side is a sense of justice. People love to see justice being done. Even if they don't see it directly. And for many people the DP is the ultimate form of justice when applied to a serial killer or serial rapist.

    The gory details don't matter. If humans were that weak stomached then there would be no such thing as horror movies. No such thing as war movies. No such thing as any violent movie period. Which of course would translate to reality. There would be no murders, rapists, wars etc etc.

    As for a sense of shame? Sorry, I feel no shame that a murderer gets the axe or that a rapist gets injected. Nor do I feel a sense of shame in how it is done. IMO neither the electric chair nor lethal injection are near as degrading or painful enough as they should be.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 03-20-12 at 05:51 AM.
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  3. #623
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Contrary to every study out there. Then again....NP has never let the facts stand in the way of being completely wrong before.
    The only thing that stopped me from literally torturing and murdering the guy that molested my nieces when they were children was the fact that I don't want to die. Sorry but for me the DP was and is a deterrent.

    Thats the funny thing about those "studies". They only focus on the crimes that have been committed in a non-DP area vs a DP area and don't address the crimes that were prevented. Know why? Because those are undocumentable. As such we have no real understanding of just how much the DP does deter violent crime. That is why those "studies" are bunk from the get go.
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  4. #624
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    That is untrue. There is an entire book turned into a documentary which details execution procedures in one state.

    lethal injection protocol
    Yes, I have seen the book. It leaves out crucial details such as the difficulty of getting IV's to a good vein because of drug use. It does not explain the fact that the arm is swabbed with alcohol, it's not like he'll get an infection. Ut is to give routine to the execution team so they can think about something wise.
    The audience has none of that e,pained. Why anal plug and cathater? To make the audience comfortable.

    Why n ot show it to the world why is it hidden away? I think that modern folk like camus's fatherwohld realize the horror of it and run far away to cleanse those images from his mind.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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  5. #625
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    Re: Death Penalty

    P
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I think you underestimate human nature, both the good and the bad. If what you say is true then there wouldn't be a thousand plus years of documented hangings, beheadings etc etc of which were public and that humans often cheered for those things to happen. And they did so for at least two reasons.

    One being the darker side, blood lust. Humans are by nature a blood thirsty race. There has yet to be one single day in documented history where someone, somewhere wasn't killed by another human.

    The other side is a sense of justice. People love to see justice being done. Even if they don't see it directly. And for many people the DP is the ultimate form of justice when applied to a serial killer or serial rapist.

    The gory details don't matter. If humans were that weak stomached then there would be no such thing as horror movies. No such thing as war movies. No such thing as any violent movie period. Which of course would translate to reality. There would be no murders, rapists, wars etc etc.

    As for a sense of shame? Sorry, I feel no shame that a murderer gets the axe or that a rapist gets injected. Nor do I feel a sense of shame in how it is done. IMO neither the electric chair nor lethal injection are near as degrading or painful enough as they should be.
    I may underestimate the human lust for violence, but pop culturs is different than the reality in your face. I think you may undederestimate the power of something real. Sure we can watch those movies,but we know no one is being killed. You also have to account for human compassion

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  6. #626
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    If the death penalty were a deterrent, then why do we have less crime in modern America than was present in more brutal cultures in the past, and in current brutal cultures around the world? Their punishments are harsher, yet we have less crime.

    Every study shows that severity of punishment is not a deterrent against crime, especially not crimes like murder.

    And we shouldn't kill anyone if there is any doubt? Well let me tell you, there is ALWAYS doubt. It is impossible to know for sure. Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable form of evidence. DNA evidence is not nearly so cut and dry like on TV. In most cases, including murder cases, it is unavailable to determine anything. Ever fingerprinting, often portrayed as infallible, is actually pretty much guesswork. Even the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard only shows us that someone probably perpetrated the crime. It is not "beyond all doubt."

    No innocent person should be executed. Ever. And the only way to ensure that we do not is never to kill anyone. Any other course guarantees that we will kill an innocent person. Any other course makes us murderers.
    If an axe murderer killed all of your loved ones and there was complete evidence (whether infallible or not), I find it very hard to believe that you would be satisfied with them still being allowed to live and breathe on the same Earth you do. In many DP cases, the proof is either absolutely there, or the criminal has plead guilty.

    Whether or not studies can prove that the DP is a crime deterrent, it is basically common sense that if there wasn't capital punishment, extreme crimes would go up. Because people would know that if they killed someone, the worst that could happen is just being stuck in a jail cell the rest of their life. What kind of study could PROVE that the death penalty does or doesn't cut down on crimes such as murders? People, even murderers and rapists, are afraid of death. Common sense

  7. #627
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by MaddieGreenwell View Post
    If an axe murderer killed all of your loved ones and there was complete evidence (whether infallible or not), I find it very hard to believe that you would be satisfied with them still being allowed to live and breathe on the same Earth you do. In many DP cases, the proof is either absolutely there, or the criminal has plead guilty.
    Which exemplifies the fact that the death penalty is retribution, not a deterrent.

    Whether or not studies can prove that the DP is a crime deterrent, it is basically common sense that if there wasn't capital punishment, extreme crimes would go up. Because people would know that if they killed someone, the worst that could happen is just being stuck in a jail cell the rest of their life. What kind of study could PROVE that the death penalty does or doesn't cut down on crimes such as murders? People, even murderers and rapists, are afraid of death. Common sense
    The death penalty has not been shown it have much of any affect in the states which still allow it.
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  8. #628
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The only thing that stopped me from literally torturing and murdering the guy that molested my nieces when they were children was the fact that I don't want to die. Sorry but for me the DP was and is a deterrent.

    Thats the funny thing about those "studies". They only focus on the crimes that have been committed in a non-DP area vs a DP area and don't address the crimes that were prevented. Know why? Because those are undocumentable. As such we have no real understanding of just how much the DP does deter violent crime. That is why those "studies" are bunk from the get go.
    Sorry....but I suspect that you also didn't want to go to jail...especially for the rest of your life. I doubt highly it was the DP that was the "deterrent" for you.
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  9. #629
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The only thing that stopped me from literally torturing and murdering the guy that molested my nieces when they were children was the fact that I don't want to die. Sorry but for me the DP was and is a deterrent.
    You should take a more Amish approach to retribution.

    Thats the funny thing about those "studies". They only focus on the crimes that have been committed in a non-DP area vs a DP area and don't address the crimes that were prevented. Know why? Because those are undocumentable. As such we have no real understanding of just how much the DP does deter violent crime. That is why those "studies" are bunk from the get go.
    The documentation is real. You could see "prevention" as a reduction in violent crime. By comparing states with DP versus states with no DP, deterrence should reveal less violent crime/murder in states with DP.

    To me, I don't even need documentation. It's pretty obvious that the vast majority of killers don't care so much about life, not even their own.

  10. #630
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Sorry....but I suspect that you also didn't want to go to jail...especially for the rest of your life. I doubt highly it was the DP that was the "deterrent" for you.
    I've been in jail, sorry but it didn't bother me in the slightest. 3 meals a day, a bed, tv, all the books I could read and didn't have to do a thing.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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