View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #591
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Argumentum ad populum. How many people believe a thing has no bearing on whether or not it's factually true. Like it or not, under the laws of those countries at the time, what they did was not murder. You can wave your arms around all you like, it doesn't change reality.
    So, you're in the camp: "Dictators don't murder their own citizens."

    It is not a fallacy. Mac and you believe they are not murderers, but alleged suspects.
    Last edited by Mensch; 03-17-12 at 11:42 AM.

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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    So, you're in the camp: "Dictators don't murder their own citizens."

    It is not a fallacy. Mac and you believe they are not murderers, but alleged suspects.
    I'm stating that, by any credible legal definition, what they did was not murder. That doesn't mean I agree with it, it doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't be taken down, just that what they did was not murder. Words have meanings for a reason.
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I'm stating that, by any credible legal definition, what they did was not murder. That doesn't mean I agree with it, it doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't be taken down, just that what they did was not murder. Words have meanings for a reason.
    I disagree. These men were murderers. That doesn't require a redefining of terms, but common moral decency.

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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    What you're saying is that Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and many others were allegedly murdered people. You're very lonely in that belief.



    Given that you have to ask me what we're talking about, wouldn't that mean you are confused? I was referencing the Stalinist campaign against the Ukrainians.



    We're not talking about executing war criminals, but having the human decency to denounce them as murderers rather than alleged suspects.



    If we applied US statutes toward war criminals, we would consider them murderers. You refuse to do that.



    12 states do allow for the execution of juveniles.



    You're conflating two different issues. Saudi Arabia is not involved in the genocide debate. They are separate, but still not murderers according to your logic.

    A genocide is still a genocide, regardless of when it occurred. Unfortunately, your logic dictates that those who committed it before it was identified as a crime cannot be considered murderers.



    You're the one who argued that the Stalinists never massacred the Ukrainians. And what about the thousands of Jews and dissidents who were executed in a kangaroo court? I guess those executions were legal, according to you.



    Says who? If one treaty is binding, why does it need to be related to another in order for it to be fully binding?



    Right. But that still doesn't change the fact that dictators are murderers.
    Listen. Just as you keep claiming "devil's advocate" status in your arguments, I am telling you the difference between what we feel and what is legal. You can waive any flag you like, but our death penalty is not illegal and the state executing a convicted criminal is not murder.
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I have compassion for all things that suffer. Since you appear to be a god fearing man, what ever happened to forgiveness? or this a tenent of religion that is not as important as retribution and sin?
    So you concede defeat then... got it.
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Listen. Just as you keep claiming "devil's advocate" status in your arguments, I am telling you the difference between what we feel and what is legal. You can waive any flag you like, but our death penalty is not illegal and the state executing a convicted criminal is not murder.
    My argument never questioned the legality of the death penalty in the US.

    As for "murder," I did a little more digging. Check out the definitions for the word "murdering." Though we could not use the term murder in a literal sense as I had wished, we could actually use the term murdering to describe the acts of Stalin and other dictators (and that would meet the literal definition of the term). This discrepancy just goes to show why we shouldn't be blinded by a literal interpretation of terms.

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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    I disagree. These men were murderers. That doesn't require a redefining of terms, but common moral decency.
    Where was the decency for their victims?...If they need someone to pull the switch on this scum I will volunteer

    The only thing wrong with the death penalty is we don't execute the scum fast enough... If I had my say I would execute any criminal convicted of a capital crime one year from sentencing........None of this 20 year ****.
    Last edited by Navy Pride; 03-18-12 at 11:03 PM.
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    My argument never questioned the legality of the death penalty in the US.
    It sure did, if you want to use it to justify calling the death penalty murder.

    As for "murder," I did a little more digging. Check out the definitions for the word "murdering." Though we could not use the term murder in a literal sense as I had wished, we could actually use the term murdering to describe the acts of Stalin and other dictators (and that would meet the literal definition of the term). This discrepancy just goes to show why we shouldn't be blinded by a literal interpretation of terms.
    I have, I've even tried to make your argument work...it just doesn't. As far as literal interpretations... language is language...we're not going to get anywhere if we can't even agree on what the words mean.
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It sure did, if you want to use it to justify calling the death penalty murder.
    I've questioned, at different times, the constitutionality and purpose of the death penalty in the US. I am not that stupid to suggest it is illegal to execute criminals in the US. I don't believe in subjugating our will to that of international courts, nor has this debate revolved around justifying certain international treaties and our signatures/ratification of said treaties. They were used in conjunction with our arguments, but they were not the main point of the argument.


    I have, I've even tried to make your argument work...it just doesn't. As far as literal interpretations... language is language...we're not going to get anywhere if we can't even agree on what the words mean.
    Like I said, if used as a verb, it is literally justified. I just don't think we should be blinded by a literal interpretation of text. Take the bible for instance. If we expected society to take its verses literally, we would effectively see stoning and slavery as a norm.

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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    So you concede defeat then... got it.
    Concede what? I said I have compassion for all things that suffer. What am I conceding?

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