View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #571
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    Wrong. I'm playing devil's advocate in order to prove your argument false. The Nazis did murder, but so did the Stalinists. Your logic would imply otherwise. Or, at the very least, would imply that the Saudi Arabian government NEVER murdered its citizens.
    No, logic does not prove otherwise. They were both instances of murder. It's just the method that differed.

    If it is not made illegal by any law anywhere, then the death penalty can be used to kill innocent people. PERIOD. The legal framework under which a killing is carried out does not solely dictate when a murder takes place.
    By law, the death penalty can only be applied after conviction in a court. That implies guilt. Neither US nor international law supports your claim that the innocent can be legally put to death.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Yes, there are rules...under international law.



    Syria is practically in a Civil war. The government can commit war crimes during a civil war.
    Correct. What I am saying is that the terminology of a "civil" war is ridiculous. War is not civil. As for war "crimes" I feel there should be no "rules" in war. There should be no war, but that obviously is not a possibility. If there is war, why are there rules? If you are going to kill or maim or abuse people the doesn't that make it criminal in the first place?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didn’t have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, I’m allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and I’ve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I don’t, before you know it, you won’t let me say nothing at all"
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  3. #573
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    This doesn't change the fact that the punishment was served retroactively for a crime that, at that time, was not illegal.
    Regardless, they were found guilty of murder.

    That would mean Joseph Stalin and his followers did not mean to starve the several million Ukrainians who were robbed of their livelihood.
    One does not have to intend to be negligent.

    That is bull****. You know damn well I'm playing devil's advocate in order to demonstrate the weakness of your argument. I DO consider the Nazi killings murder, despite the fact that it was supposedly legal at the time. I also consider the Soviet killings murder, despite the fact that it was supposedly legal at the time and no judgement or punishment was ever rendered for that crime in a judicial setting (which is key to the definition of law).
    The war crimes that were committed did not need to be classified as genocide in order to be crimes. Gassing to death un-armed non-combatant civilians without trial is a war crime regardless of race. I'm afraid it's not bull****.

    We signed, but we did not ratify. What does that mean? Saudi Arabia did not sign nor did they ratify the treaty. So, I guess that means when the Saudi government beheads adulterers and homosexuals, it is not murder (according to your logic).
    Not in accordance with their laws. I believe that can and should be argued in an international court though.

    In every one of these convenants that we did sign, we also made reservations. Can you tell me, by what logic, am I allowed to make reservations regarding laws in this country? If it is unfathomable to hold reservations in regard to homicide laws, why would it be fathomable to hold them in regard to international laws?
    We are bound by what we agreed to be bound by. Regardless of our reservations, we have agreed to follow international law. Which does not make the death penalty illegal, by the way.

    And finally, according to the literal definition (which you again ignored), the said treaty is not, in fact, a law.
    A treaty is a law once signed.

    treaty legal definition of treaty. treaty synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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  4. #574
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    Correct. What I am saying is that the terminology of a "civil" war is ridiculous. War is not civil. As for war "crimes" I feel there should be no "rules" in war. There should be no war, but that obviously is not a possibility. If there is war, why are there rules? If you are going to kill or maim or abuse people the doesn't that make it criminal in the first place?
    Do we really need to discuss what a civil war is?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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  5. #575
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Do we really need to discuss what a civil war is?
    I was just putting in my two cents on literal meanings when it comes to war. I usually do not tell people my views on those two items as it makes me seem callous. I have a lot of pet peeves about word usage. Ex. "Personally, I believe" or For me, personally" the use of "personally" is unnecessary.

    Now I'm way off topic.

    With the death penalty, regardless of the law I think it is murder. It is a heinous act just as committing genocide is.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didn’t have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, I’m allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and I’ve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I don’t, before you know it, you won’t let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    “Reading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.”
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  6. #576
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I was just putting in my two cents on literal meanings when it comes to war. I usually do not tell people my views on those two items as it makes me seem callous. I have a lot of pet peeves about word usage. Ex. "Personally, I believe" or For me, personally" the use of "personally" is unnecessary.

    Now I'm way off topic.

    With the death penalty, regardless of the law I think it is murder. It is a heinous act just as committing genocide is.
    Well, it's not. It's legal and therefor not murder. It is wrong though, to that I agree.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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  7. #577
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, logic does not prove otherwise. They were both instances of murder. It's just the method that differed.
    I notice, once again, you conveniently left out Saudi Arabia.



    By law, the death penalty can only be applied after conviction in a court. That implies guilt. Neither US nor international law supports your claim that the innocent can be legally put to death.
    What if you do not ratify the treaty and therefore are not bound by its rules?

  8. #578
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    I notice, once again, you conveniently left out Saudi Arabia.
    No, I didn't.

    What if you do not ratify the treaty and therefore are not bound by its rules?
    Then you are not bound by it's rules.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
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  9. #579
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Regardless, they were found guilty of murder.
    A very unique instance of conviction. The Stalinists were not found guilty, so a conviction in court is obviously not the key.

    One does not have to intend to be negligent.
    WANTING and premeditating the murders means it is NOT negligent.

    The war crimes that were committed did not need to be classified as genocide in order to be crimes. Gassing to death un-armed non-combatant civilians without trial is a war crime regardless of race. I'm afraid it's not bull****.
    What does race have anything to do with anything? I realize they were crimes even if there were no laws to state such crimes. Your logic would dictate the reverse- that a law has to explicitely outlaw something before it can be considered murder.

    Not in accordance with their laws. I believe that can and should be argued in an international court though.
    Right. But do YOU see it as murder? Given that they're not bound by the treaty, how would they have violated international law?

    We are bound by what we agreed to be bound by. Regardless of our reservations, we have agreed to follow international law. Which does not make the death penalty illegal, by the way.
    That does not adhere to the literal definition of LAW. It is ridiculous to consider a treaty a law in which many do not ratify, many do not sign, and those that do make reservations. We don't pick and choose here, so why is it a legitimate argument to use international treaties in this matter?

    I gave you the definition of law. Clearly it does not apply.

  10. #580
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No, I didn't.
    You said "both" referring to Nazi Germany and Soviet Union, not including SA.

    Then you are not bound by it's rules.
    Then, to that logic, Saudi Arabia performs just killings.

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