View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #491
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    It said no such thing. Like our constitution, the UDHR gives explicit guidelines that are not always followed. What else do you infer from "EVERY human being has an inherent right to life?"

    Also, consider the fact that you brought up the international consensus regarding Nazi war crimes, while the UDHR was inspired largely because of those crimes and was even adopted on the same day as the genocide convention.
    First, you brought up the Nazi's. Second, don't quote one line of the UDHR and ignore the rest. The very next sentence following the one you've been quoting (which is one of my favorites, btw) says that the death penalty is not illegal in countries that have not abolished. It's plainly written.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  2. #492
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    This proves my original point. The death penalty is not illegal in certain countries, but that is not legislated by a world power. Instead, it is left to the individual countries. Likewise, the Nazi extermination of Jews (or, if you need another example which wasn't punished by any UN resolution, you can look at the Stalin campaign to systematically starve Ukrainians) was legal under that nation's laws.
    It's agreed to by international law and clarified as not illegal in those countries. It's very easy to read and understand.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  3. #493
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    There is no contradiction. An embryo is not an infant. One has to deal with women's right to own her own body and decide what she wishes to do with it, and the other deals with a government overstepping its boundaries in order to decide who lives and who dies.
    There is a contradiction. The example you specify is only appropriate if she is trying to kill herself, not the ZEF she's carrying which is a separate body.

    Is it a contradiction to be pro-life and simultaneously pro-death?
    Imho, yes. However, endorsing the death of the innocent while condemning the death of the guilty is beyond contradiction.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  4. #494
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    First, you brought up the Nazi's. Second, don't quote one line of the UDHR and ignore the rest. The very next sentence following the one you've been quoting (which is one of my favorites, btw) says that the death penalty is not illegal in countries that have not abolished. It's plainly written.
    First of all, I misquoted. The UDHR does not give exception to the rule. Look it up. Second, the civil and political rights convention promotes the abolition of death penalty, but gives a caveat to those who insist on keeping the death penalty. They do this in order to prevent (and I've said this already) an abuse of power. FINALLY, it is a recognition of legalized murder in specific states. It does NOT legitimize state-sanctioned killing. Let me use anti-abortion conservatives in red states under a Roe v. Wade federal precedence legalizing abortion. Abortion is legal on a federal level and anti-abortion conservatives can't fully criminalize abortion in their own states. But given that it is legal, they try to set guidelines and regulations which make it harder for abortions to occur on-demand. Instead of trying to criminalize countries who perform death penalties, the convention does its best to denounce those who perform routine executions for thieves and drug addicts. It does not criminalize the death penalty. Look at China. Look at their draconian laws and how often people are executed for seemingly nonviolent crimes. Does the UN take any steps, other than official denouncement, to criminalize the entire country of China? NO!

    It is legal in China to kill at the discretion of the authoritarian government. This is true in many parts of the world, and the UN is powerless to stop it. The only reason the Nazis were ever punished for their crimes was because the allies beat them in a war. Yet, it still doesn't deviate from the basic fact that the final solution was legal in Nazi Germany. Starvation of Ukrainians was legal in the Soviet Russia. State-sanctioned murder is legal in North Korea. And the rest of the world is powerless to stop it.

  5. #495
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    There is a contradiction. The example you specify is only appropriate if she is trying to kill herself, not the ZEF she's carrying which is a separate body.
    You do not have rights over another person's body parts. Until it is able to survive outside the womb, it is a part of the woman's body.



    Imho, yes. However, endorsing the death of the innocent while condemning the death of the guilty is beyond contradiction.
    According to Christian doctrine, aren't we all born into sin?

  6. #496
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's agreed to by international law and clarified as not illegal in those countries. It's very easy to read and understand.
    And I can recognize that state-sanctioned killing in other countries, as well as our own, is both legal and MURDER.

  7. #497
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    as a hated leftist on this board I support the death penalty and have posted this many times
    Who hates you? Not me.............I thank you and would say judging by the results of this thread you are the exception rather then the rule.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  8. #498
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    First of all, I misquoted. The UDHR does not give exception to the rule. Look it up. Second, the civil and political rights convention promotes the abolition of death penalty, but gives a caveat to those who insist on keeping the death penalty. They do this in order to prevent (and I've said this already) an abuse of power. FINALLY, it is a recognition of legalized murder in specific states. It does NOT legitimize state-sanctioned killing. Let me use anti-abortion conservatives in red states under a Roe v. Wade federal precedence legalizing abortion. Abortion is legal on a federal level and anti-abortion conservatives can't fully criminalize abortion in their own states. But given that it is legal, they try to set guidelines and regulations which make it harder for abortions to occur on-demand. Instead of trying to criminalize countries who perform death penalties, the convention does its best to denounce those who perform routine executions for thieves and drug addicts. It does not criminalize the death penalty. Look at China. Look at their draconian laws and how often people are executed for seemingly nonviolent crimes. Does the UN take any steps, other than official denouncement, to criminalize the entire country of China? NO!

    It is legal in China to kill at the discretion of the authoritarian government. This is true in many parts of the world, and the UN is powerless to stop it. The only reason the Nazis were ever punished for their crimes was because the allies beat them in a war. Yet, it still doesn't deviate from the basic fact that the final solution was legal in Nazi Germany. Starvation of Ukrainians was legal in the Soviet Russia. State-sanctioned murder is legal in North Korea. And the rest of the world is powerless to stop it.
    The simple truth is that the Death penalty is not murder under US law, nor is it made illegal by international law. . Murder is an illegal killing, the death penalty is not an illegal killing however unjust we may think that is.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  9. #499
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    And I can recognize that state-sanctioned killing in other countries, as well as our own, is both legal and MURDER.
    Then you don't understand what murder means.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  10. #500
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    There is no contradiction. An embryo is not an infant. One has to deal with women's right to own her own body and decide what she wishes to do with it, and the other deals with a government overstepping its boundaries in order to decide who lives and who dies.

    Is it a contradiction to be pro-life and simultaneously pro-death?

    OK can you tell me what crime and innocent defenseless infant in the womb has committed to kill it....Now a person who is sentenced to death has committed a capital crime such as first degree murder where in a lot of cases he has raped and murdered someones daughter, mother or sisiter............

    I wonder if you can see the difference?
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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