View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #311
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    All that may be true, but doesn't alter anything in my previous statement.
    Ockham, do you remember our discussion regarding Christianity and peace? You argued that Christ did not stand for peace (or something along those lines), and you referenced the famous "turn thy cheek" statement made by Christ. You made some observation regarding Roman times and the fact that a back-handed slap was used to humiliate a person. Ergo, what Christ really meant was don't let a person humiliate you (or something along those lines). For a moment, I believed you. That is, until kamikaze referenced the entire statement by Christ in a post on this page.

    "Matthew 5:28 says 'You have heard it said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smack you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat, let him have your cloke also.'"

    When taken by whole, it sounds very much pro non-aggression, pro-peace. It doesn't sound at all like Christ (or Matthew) is talking about avoiding humiliation.

  2. #312
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Adequate justice/punishment for one's actions is not the same as revenge even if the end result is the same.
    In the case of the death penalty, how can it be argued that adequate justice and revenge are separable? If the punishment is adequate, then it is revenge. If it is inadequate (in some people's opinion) then the punishment is merciful. If it is a Christian's biblical duty to forgive and be merciful, and a large base of society are Christians, and the government is supposed to mirror the sentiment of society in legislation and application of the law, wouldn't it then stand to reason that if the Christians are forgiving and merciful, that the government would reflect that in the criminal justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    A judges value system may inject itself in the sentencing portion of a criminal case for example, but it still has zero to do with the letter of the law. The law is very specific - and has ZERO to do with Christianity. However, the people who are part of the judicial system, lawyers and judges yes, may marginally have their personal Christian values affect the course of action they take. However, I could say that about anyone's value system whether it be Hindu, Islamic, Tao, or agnostic..... The letter of the law however has nothing to do with a Christian believe system - there is no point to point connection between the two that exists.

    If you think I'm wrong, please point out where in the criminal code or civil code laws are written with a direct connection to Christianity.
    Without being able to site specific examples (because I don't have time to do the research) I believe that historically, as the founding documents and original federal and state legislation was drafted, MUCH of the influence that went into those writings was from a Christian perspective. And, in reality, we know that religious doctrine has made it's way into the law in many instances. As a couple of examples, laws forbiding bigamy and incest, and the laws in some states (just repealed last year in Georgia) that forbade the sale of alcohol on Sundays. I think it is fair to say that the Christian faith has, at the very least, been an important contributing factor to both legislation and the application of the law over time, and that in many instances that faith has caused certain laws to come into existence that make no sense in any other legal context other than that those items are offensive to the moral order of things according to the Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mensch View Post
    Ockham, do you remember our discussion regarding Christianity and peace? You argued that Christ did not stand for peace (or something along those lines), and you referenced the famous "turn thy cheek" statement made by Christ. You made some observation regarding Roman times and the fact that a back-handed slap was used to humiliate a person. Ergo, what Christ really meant was don't let a person humiliate you (or something along those lines). For a moment, I believed you. That is, until kamikaze referenced the entire statement by Christ in a post on this page.

    "Matthew 5:28 says 'You have heard it said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smack you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat, let him have your cloke also.'"

    When taken by whole, it sounds very much pro non-aggression, pro-peace. It doesn't sound at all like Christ (or Matthew) is talking about avoiding humiliation.

  3. #313
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    Re: Death Penalty

    I have now reduced my argument to Killing is bad. Killing is wrong. No matter who does it or for what reason it is bad, it is wrong to take another life.

    No statistics, no emotion, no religion, no philosophy, revenge or retribution. It is just bad. OK?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

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    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I believe the point that was made is that a main tenet of christian belief is that forgiveness and mercy are virtues and core to christianity.
    But so is justice. You're deciding that one tenet is more important than another. They all fit together. You can forgive someone yet still pursue justice. Christians know this because our sins were forgiven but not without a cost. God still needed justice for our sins which is why Jesus took Gods wrath in our place. The penalty still needed to be paid.

  5. #315
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Stopandthink View Post
    But so is justice. You're deciding that one tenet is more important than another. They all fit together. You can forgive someone yet still pursue justice. Christians know this because our sins were forgiven but not without a cost. God still needed justice for our sins which is why Jesus took Gods wrath in our place. The penalty still needed to be paid.
    So some arbitrary group of people gets to decide what "justice" means. The death penalty is revenge, retribution, and a whole lot of other r words that I can't think of right now.

    Killing is bad. killing is wrong. That's it.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I have now reduced my argument to Killing is bad. Killing is wrong. No matter who does it or for what reason it is bad, it is wrong to take another life.

    No statistics, no emotion, no religion, no philosophy, revenge or retribution. It is just bad. OK?
    The premise of your argument is that killing is always wrong. That is clearly false by almost any standard. A more rational argument is that premeditated killing is wrong might be more acceptable, but are you willing to make it?

  7. #317
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    The premise of your argument is that killing is always wrong. That is clearly false by almost any standard. A more rational argument is that premeditated killing is wrong might be more acceptable, but are you willing to make it?
    What premeditated vs. oops! my knife fell down or Oops! my car accelerated or oops I meant to just burgle your house but you were home so I had to strangle you. The only exception I will make is self defense, that is done in a VERY clear fashion, like the young lady in Oklahoma In this case killing is not bad.


    Killing is wrong. Killing is bad,
    Last edited by taxigirl; 03-10-12 at 05:12 PM.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    What premeditated vs. oops! my knife fell down or Oops! my car accelerated or oops I meant to just burgle your house but you were home so I had to strangle you. The only exception I will make is self defense, that is done in a VERY clear fashion, like the young lady in Oklahoma In this case killing is not bad.


    Killing is wrong. Killing is bad,
    Now you're just being ditzy.

  9. #319
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Now you're just being ditzy.
    I think this is what happened then

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  10. #320
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    I have now reduced my argument to Killing is bad. Killing is wrong. No matter who does it or for what reason it is bad, it is wrong to take another life.

    No statistics, no emotion, no religion, no philosophy, revenge or retribution. It is just bad. OK?
    But you support abortion, right?
    ĒPeople willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.Ē --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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