View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #281
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Some will, but certainly not nearly as many as before since many of the people care nothing about whether the guys actually are innocent or not, but rather just keeping the people from being executed.
    Wow, that makes no sense at all. So, they care if they die but not if they're innocent? I don't even know how to argue that it's so illogical.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    In 2007, 42 total executions took place, 57 prisoners where killed in state prisons. Over 3,300 prisoners died of things other than execution that year. Odds are very good that a prisoner is less likely to be executed than they are to die of something else while in prison.
    A person who is awaiting the death penalty has a very good chance of having their case overturned on appeal (67%), non-capitol offenders much less (15%).
    Those awaiting the DP in almost every prison in the country are separated from general population and each other. LWOP prisoners are put into general population. Kinda hard to get killed by another prisoner if you have very little to no contact with them.
    These are all numbers that involve the death penalty. They would all certainly change if the dp was removed. Defense lawyers and the like would not have to focus on the person that is about to be executed anymore. The cells being used by death row inmates right now, can be used by lwop prisoners. Lwop wings can be opened in prisons now because the need for a death row wing is not needed anymore. To go back to my earlier argument, are you saying that since a prisoner is most likely going to die in prison anyway we should just go ahead and kill them and get it over with? I'll say it again, I think it would be a different story if you were the one on the business end of that logic. Finally, just putting numbers on the screen isn't good enough bud. That's not how it works. You need to provide sources. How do I know you didn't just throw those numbers up on the screen?
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  2. #282
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Some will, but certainly not nearly as many as before since many of the people care nothing about whether the guys actually are innocent or not, but rather just keeping the people from being executed.



    In 2007, 42 total executions took place, 57 prisoners where killed in state prisons. Over 3,300 prisoners died of things other than execution that year. Odds are very good that a prisoner is less likely to be executed than they are to die of something else while in prison.

    A person who is awaiting the death penalty has a very good chance of having their case overturned on appeal (67%), non-capitol offenders much less (15%).

    Those awaiting the DP in almost every prison in the country are separated from general population and each other. LWOP prisoners are put into general population. Kinda hard to get killed by another prisoner if you have very little to no contact with them.
    While they are alive they die every die. Every day they have to countdown, worry their appeal will fail, come to terms with inevitability, think WTF is they are innocent, think about the fear of death, what happens? is their a god or afterlife of some type? Every day they die.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didn’t have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, I’m allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and I’ve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I don’t, before you know it, you won’t let me say nothing at all"
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  3. #283
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Wow, that makes no sense at all. So, they care if they die but not if they're innocent? I don't even know how to argue that it's so illogical.
    It's not illogical. There are people who don't really care if the people are guilty or innocent who are facing the DP. They will argue just as strongly that a guilty person shouldn't face the DP that they would an innocent person wouldn't face it. After all, most people have no way of knowing for sure if someone about to be executed is guilty or innocent.

    You may not agree with them or believe me, but there are people that protest and fight for appeals for DP cases that have no really care whether the person is guilty or innocent. They simply don't believe the person should be executed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    These are all numbers that involve the death penalty. They would all certainly change if the dp was removed. Defense lawyers and the like would not have to focus on the person that is about to be executed anymore. The cells being used by death row inmates right now, can be used by lwop prisoners. Lwop wings can be opened in prisons now because the need for a death row wing is not needed anymore. To go back to my earlier argument, are you saying that since a prisoner is most likely going to die in prison anyway we should just go ahead and kill them and get it over with? I'll say it again, I think it would be a different story if you were the one on the business end of that logic. Finally, just putting numbers on the screen isn't good enough bud. That's not how it works. You need to provide sources. How do I know you didn't just throw those numbers up on the screen?
    No, the numbers of those that die in prison that I gave do not include those who were executed for that year.

    And I would much rather be in a cell on death row waiting for my appeals by myself, which are very likely to get me free (68% of CP appeals get the person off of death row, many released or a new trial), than in the general population where I could end up dead or someone's bitch with a much smaller chance of getting exonerated (15% of non-CP appeals overturn the original ruling) if I were innocent. I would rather play the odds, particularly if I know I didn't do it.
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  4. #284
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    While they are alive they die every die. Every day they have to countdown, worry their appeal will fail, come to terms with inevitability, think WTF is they are innocent, think about the fear of death, what happens? is their a god or afterlife of some type? Every day they die.
    Every day they die in prison too if they are facing LWOP. And there is a much smaller chance that they will get their case overturned if they are not facing CP.

    Is that right? No, but it is what it is true now. Without the DP, it is not likely that so many people would really care whether a person in jail is innocent or guilty. Some still would, but not nearly as many as do now, and not at nearly the same level of haste in trying to find out whether a person is really innocent.

    And I am all for changing the requirements that must be met for a person to get the DP. (Personally, I think the military way should serve as a model for addressing DP and potential DP cases.) But I am not for abolishing the death penalty, even if innocent people are executed. Those same innocent people could die in prison as well. Those same innocent people are still innocent whether they are executed or die of old age in prison because no one believed them.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 03-09-12 at 05:52 PM.
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  5. #285
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    Re: Death Penalty

    I changed my stance on the dealth penalty within the last couple of years. I used to support it and I think that there are definately people who deserve such a penalty- psychotic and sociopathic type people that commit the most heinous of murders. However, regardless of whether a person deserved it or not, when I hear on the news that a person is scheduled to die at 7PM, it has an effect on me as a citizen- and it just plain doesn't feel right. It makes me feel like there is something I should do to stop it. It seems extremely uncivilized to me.

    It sounds silly, but I decided to stop supporting the dealth penalty because it didn't seem fair to ME. I didn't feel like I deserved to be traumatized, knowing that a person was scheduled to die at 7.. then comes the countdown, then the announcement that the person was dead. The whole thing just doesn't seem right.

    I also have a problem with the way that the penalty is applied. I don't think it is applied equitably. For instance, I know of two cases in the State of Alabama. Two separate murders, two separate defendants. The difference was the murders took place in adjoining counties. One murder was an execution type shooting where the guy's wife put a hit out on him. The wife got the dealth penalty, the hitman/shooter got life without parole.

    In the adjoining county, the murder there was a kidnapping, sexual assault, and dismemberment of a 14 year old girl. This county could not afford to pursue the death penalty and did not seek it. The guy got life without parole. The lady that put the hit out on her husband vs. the guy that raped and dismembered a child. Which one should have gone to death row? Hello? This is an inequitable application of the dealth penalty across two counties within the same state.

    And then there is the potential that an innocent person would be (and probably has been) executed. To me, this was the clincher. It isn't worth it to me to take that chance. To many opportunities for error in most cases. Beyond a reasonable doubt is not a stringent enough standard for the death penalty. It should be beyond all doubt that the person was guilty before they are sentenced to die.
    Last edited by kamikaze483; 03-09-12 at 05:46 PM. Reason: mistake

  6. #286
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikaze483 View Post
    I changed my stance on the dealth penalty within the last couple of years. I used to support it and I think that there are definately people who deserve such a penalty- psychotic and sociopathic type people that commit the most heinous of murders. However, regardless of whether a person deserved it or not, when I hear on the news that a person is scheduled to die at 7PM, it has an effect on me as a citizen- and it just plain doesn't feel right. It makes me feel like there is something I should do to stop it. It seems extremely uncivilized to me.

    It sounds silly, but I decided to stop supporting the dealth penalty because it didn't seem fair to ME. I didn't feel like I deserved to be traumatized, knowing that a person was scheduled to die at 7.. then comes the countdown, then the announcement that the person was dead. The whole thing just doesn't seem right.

    I also have a problem with the way that the penalty is applied. I don't think it is applied equitably. For instance, I know of two cases in the State of Alabama. Two separate murders, two separate defendants. The difference was the murders took place in adjoining counties. One murder was an execution type shooting where the guy's wife put a hit out on him. The wife got the dealth penalty, the hitman/shooter got life without parole.

    In the adjoining county, the murder there was a kidnapping, sexual assault, and dismemberment of a 14 year old girl. This county could not afford to pursue the death penalty and did not seek it. The guy got life without parole. The lady that put the hit out on her husband vs. the guy that raped and dismembered a child. Which one should have gone to death row? Hello? This is an inequitable application of the dealth penalty across two counties within the same state.

    And then there is the potential that an innocent person would be (and probably has been) executed. To me, this was the clincher. It isn't worth it to me to take that chance. To many opportunities for error in most cases. Beyond a reasonable doubt is not a stringent enough standard for the death penalty. It should be beyond all doubt that the person was guilty before they are sentenced to die.
    That icky "doesn't feel right" feeling is cited historically as why the DP has been dropped. An argument that goes along with that is if executions were public it would quickly persuade the general public that it is wrong. Movies depict people being excited and happy about executions, but I doubt that is how it happened. Everything I have read is that there was a feeling of dread. Right now we hide everything about an execution. What they do to a prisoner to prep, who the executioner is, etc... did you know that they swab the condenmed's arm with alcohol before they insert the needle? What is the point? It is not like they are going to get an infection. The purpose is to give the execution team a routine to follow, something to think about so they do not get that icky feeling. Just thinking about it makes me want to vomit.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didn’t have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, I’m allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and I’ve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I don’t, before you know it, you won’t let me say nothing at all"
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  7. #287
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It's not illogical. There are people who don't really care if the people are guilty or innocent who are facing the DP. They will argue just as strongly that a guilty person shouldn't face the DP that they would an innocent person wouldn't face it. After all, most people have no way of knowing for sure if someone about to be executed is guilty or innocent.

    You may not agree with them or believe me, but there are people that protest and fight for appeals for DP cases that have no really care whether the person is guilty or innocent. They simply don't believe the person should be executed.



    No, the numbers of those that die in prison that I gave do not include those who were executed for that year.

    And I would much rather be in a cell on death row waiting for my appeals by myself, which are very likely to get me free (68% of CP appeals get the person off of death row, many released or a new trial), than in the general population where I could end up dead or someone's bitch with a much smaller chance of getting exonerated (15% of non-CP appeals overturn the original ruling) if I were innocent. I would rather play the odds, particularly if I know I didn't do it.
    Regardless of what you say. You're argument boils down to this. You would rather keep the death penalty simply because if we put people in general population, on the sentence of life without parole, they MIGHT be killed by another inmate. That makes no sense, whatsoever. What a complete and utter disregard for the value of human life. You are viewing human life as an inconvienience and that's wrong. In addition, you STILL have not provided a link to any of the statistics you have posted.
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  8. #288
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Regardless of what you say. You're argument boils down to this. You would rather keep the death penalty simply because if we put people in general population, on the sentence of life without parole, they MIGHT be killed by another inmate. That makes no sense, whatsoever. What a complete and utter disregard for the value of human life. You are viewing human life as an inconvienience and that's wrong. In addition, you STILL have not provided a link to any of the statistics you have posted.
    No. I want to keep the death penalty because it is justice. I was refuting the argument that innocent people die from the death penalty. Innocent people die from just from being in prison, so it is a faulty argument.

    I have a high regard for human life. But I also take a step back and try not to view everything from an emotional standpoint. I try to deal with facts as much as possible and look at a situation logically. Unfortunately, justice is an abstract concept that involves opinions. I believe that justice is served with the death penalty when we have a lot of evidence that a person is guilty. I would love to see the system changed so that we only execute people for very specific crimes and a very specific amount of evidence, but the "we may execute innocent people" argument does not sway me because we could always put an innocent person in prison for decades, which, for at least some, would be much worse than facing the DP.

    Here is some of the links for the info statistics I provided, btw.

    Bureau of Justice Statistics - Deaths In Custody Statistical Tables - State Prison Deaths Tables List
    Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Capital Punishment, 2007 - Statistical Tables
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  9. #289
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. I want to keep the death penalty because it is justice. I was refuting the argument that innocent people die from the death penalty. Innocent people die from just from being in prison, so it is a faulty argument.

    I have a high regard for human life. But I also take a step back and try not to view everything from an emotional standpoint. I try to deal with facts as much as possible and look at a situation logically. Unfortunately, justice is an abstract concept that involves opinions. I believe that justice is served with the death penalty when we have a lot of evidence that a person is guilty. I would love to see the system changed so that we only execute people for very specific crimes and a very specific amount of evidence, but the "we may execute innocent people" argument does not sway me because we could always put an innocent person in prison for decades, which, for at least some, would be much worse than facing the DP.

    Here is some of the links for the info statistics I provided, btw.

    Bureau of Justice Statistics - Deaths In Custody Statistical Tables - State Prison Deaths Tables List
    Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Capital Punishment, 2007 - Statistical Tables
    The death penalty is justice how? By your logic of "justice", the thing someone does should be done to them. So a rapist should be raped. A thief should have something equivalent stolen from him. A child molester should have his child molested. I could keep going with this. This isn't emotional, its humane and sensible. I guess your opinion of the Iranian gov't chopping hands off for thievery is a given too right?
    Your argument about people dying in prison is weak as well. A person that dies in prison is not executed by the gov't, plain and simple. Murders accounted for only 1.5% of deaths in prison in 2002. In that same year, the national murder rate was 5.6%. Its safer to be in a prison. Again, this is a moot point because your argument will always go back to the premise that they may die in prison so why not just kill them anyway.
    Finally, if a person went to jail for something they didn't do, where do you think they would rather be? Death row or in general population on a life without parole sentence? If it was me, I'm going with life. Why? If I'm alive, I can still be proven innocent. If I'm on death row, I'm working with a finite amount of time, appeals, and chances. I'll take my chance with the way below national murder rate. On death row, if my chances run out, its 100% positive I'm dying.

    United States Crime Rate
    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/shsplj.pdf
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  10. #290
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    The death penalty is justice how? By your logic of "justice", the thing someone does should be done to them. So a rapist should be raped. A thief should have something equivalent stolen from him. A child molester should have his child molested. I could keep going with this. This isn't emotional, its humane and sensible. I guess your opinion of the Iranian gov't chopping hands off for thievery is a given too right?
    Your argument about people dying in prison is weak as well. A person that dies in prison is not executed by the gov't, plain and simple. Murders accounted for only 1.5% of deaths in prison in 2002. In that same year, the national murder rate was 5.6%. Its safer to be in a prison. Again, this is a moot point because your argument will always go back to the premise that they may die in prison so why not just kill them anyway.
    Finally, if a person went to jail for something they didn't do, where do you think they would rather be? Death row or in general population on a life without parole sentence? If it was me, I'm going with life. Why? If I'm alive, I can still be proven innocent. If I'm on death row, I'm working with a finite amount of time, appeals, and chances. I'll take my chance with the way below national murder rate. On death row, if my chances run out, its 100% positive I'm dying.

    United States Crime Rate
    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/shsplj.pdf
    The death penalty is justice because some people give up their right to life in order for justice to be served due to the nature of their crimes.

    I never once said what my criteria exactly is for someone to receive the DP, so why in the world would you think that I am an "eye for an eye" person? Maybe it is your assumptions on why people support the DP and the reasons for it that are causing the issues. I am quite fine with my argument that there are some things that a person does that deserve death as a punishment.

    My argument is that an innocent person on death row (room of their own, little to no contact with other prisoners) is more likely to get their case overturned than an innocent person with a LWOP sentence (living in general population, frequent contact with other, not-so-innocent prisoners).

    How do you know that you will live long enough for someone to overturn your case? How do you know you will even get an appeal? How do you know you won't spend 50 or 60 years in prison, waiting for someone to finally find out the truth, and instead you die in prison, never getting to see freedom, likely having some very negative interactions with your fellow prisoners? There is no guarantee either way that you will be found innocent, but your chances are better on death row than not. It likely won't change that much if we did away with the DP.

    And, if your appeals run out under LWOP, you are just as dead, it is only going to be a lot longer life in jail.
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