View Poll Results: Should there be a death penalty?

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  • Yes

    65 47.10%
  • No

    53 38.41%
  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    20 14.49%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #201
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian_style View Post
    Would you like to hear from your kids murderer 20 years later clambering he found "Jesus" I know how I would feel, do you?
    I'd feel regret that this did not happen 20 years eariler...that is, of course, that the "found Jesus" is genuine..often, it is not..
    I fail to see what good comes from the DP (death penalty).

  2. #202
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    You asked for one and you got one.

    "Once convicted, the presumed innocent doctrine obviously no longer applies" Now it sounds like you believe we should not even be trying to exonerate others.
    Historically, it is obvious innocent people have been executed in the US and elsewhere. Standards of justice, proof and forensics are have been vastly improved over time. For example, DNA can solidify cases against the defendants and exonerate those already convicted. We can agree this is for the best.

    Your second comment is clearly petulant. Presumed innocent does not apply to those convicted. I would have thought that much would have been obvious. This is important because the newer forensics techniques on the arson aspect of the Willingham trial did not prove that the fire was started by accident, which would have been the first step to exonerate him. While his children were burning in the house this piece of **** was trying to move his car away from the house to prevent damage.
    Last edited by Meathead; 03-04-12 at 12:09 PM.

  3. #203
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Historically, it is obvious innocent people have been executed in the US and elsewhere. Standards of justice, proof and forensics are have been vastly improved over time. For example, DNA can solidify cases against the defendants and exonerate those already convicted. We can agree this is for the best.

    Your second comment is clearly petulant. Presumed innocent does not apply to those convicted. I would have thought that much would have been obvious. This is important because the newer forensics techniques on the arson aspect of the Willingham trial did not prove that the fire was started by accident, which would have been the first step to exonerate him. While his children were burning in the house this piece of **** was trying to move his car away from the house to prevent damage.
    The state fire marshal resigned 3 months ago, just as they are starting the investigation in conjunction with the Texas Forensic Science Commission. How can you say that "the newer forensics techniques on the arson aspect of the Willingham trial did not prove that the fire was started by accident" when the state has just started the official investigation in to what techniques the fire marshal's office used?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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  4. #204
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Depends on how we're defining evil here. Particularly when we have use of a prison system which provides the same amount of relative "safety" to society on whole as does the death penalty.
    Capital punishment is just that: punishment. Deterrence is irrelevant and removing them from society is a minimum. Death is the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime.



    A dog isn't human and thus is not morally equivalent. And by using the death penalty, you KNOW that eventually you're going to consume innocent life. So you really aren't showing the value you place upon innocent human life because you are invoking a system which takes it.
    Kidnapping, raping,and murdering a child is not a human act. It is an act of a monster. I have no problem putting monsters down.

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    If you kill even one innocent person was the justification for killing thousands of guilty worth it?
    That an innocent man might be killed is the only real reason to oppose capital punishment. But what about those cases where guilt is not in doubt? If you dont support the death penalty for those essentially caught red handed, then using the execution of innocents as an excuse is a red herring.

  5. #205
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    The state fire marshal resigned 3 months ago, just as they are starting the investigation in conjunction with the Texas Forensic Science Commission. How can you say that "the newer forensics techniques on the arson aspect of the Willingham trial did not prove that the fire was started by accident" when the state has just started the official investigation in to what techniques the fire marshal's office used?
    Basically because the forensics did not prove the fire was started by accident. To win a retrial, Willingham's lawyer had to show that no reasonable jury would convict, based on clear and convincing evidence of his client's innocence. That was simply not forthcoming. If you have a problem with legal procedure, then you should probably address that in this case.

  6. #206
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Basically because the forensics did not prove the fire was started by accident. To win a retrial, Willingham's lawyer had to show that no reasonable jury would convict, based on clear and convincing evidence of his client's innocence. That was simply not forthcoming. If you have a problem with legal procedure, then you should probably address that in this case.
    You did not answer my question:

    How can you say that "the newer forensics techniques on the arson aspect of the Willingham trial did not prove that the fire was started by accident" when the state has just started the official investigation in to what techniques the fire marshal's office used?

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  7. #207
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by taxigirl View Post
    You did not answer my question:

    How can you say that "the newer forensics techniques on the arson aspect of the Willingham trial did not prove that the fire was started by accident" when the state has just started the official investigation in to what techniques the fire marshal's office used?
    You have not provided a link that I know of about the review, but it is rather obvious that whatever they are reviewing are not the latest forensics on the case which could not conclude the fire was started by accident. They are reviewing the forensics used in the original trial which concluded that the fire was arson. Is that not clear for some reason?

  8. #208
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    You have not provided a link that I know of about the review, but it is rather obvious that whatever they are reviewing are not the latest forensics on the case which could not conclude the fire was started by accident. They are reviewing the forensics used in the original trial which concluded that the fire was arson. Is that not clear for some reason?
    "New Science"


    State Fire Marshal Resigns as Arson Inquiry Begins — Cameron Todd Willingham | The Texas Tribune

    Here is a compilation of stories regarding the case.
    Topic: Cameron Todd Willingham | The Texas Tribune
    Last edited by taxigirl; 03-04-12 at 01:28 PM.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

  9. #209
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Your third point is incorrect. I believe most said that the would kill someone if they (seriously) hurt or killed someone they loved, or as they were trying to do so perhaps, but not necessarily if they tried. Obviously, trying to kill someone but not succeeding is not a death penalty crime.

    Your fourth point is easily solved. A much briefer appeals process. For example, one automatic appeal and one review from state and federal supreme courts.
    Trying means they are in the act of committing the crime or show intent to commit the crime. Like I said, if your family is in danger, its well within your right to protect them. Further, lets say person A sees person B kill person A's whole family but person A is in no danger of being killed themselves. If person A decides to kill person B, person A will be guilty of manslaughter. What's the difference in person A killing person B then as opposed to person B being executed later?
    My fourth point is not easily solved. I haven't heard of any legislation being proposed that supports your version of a briefer appeals process. Its very easy for us to sit back and say we can just change the system. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. We have to work within the process we currently have. Also, your appeals process seems to assume that the person is guilty and the process is just a check in the box. The appeals process we currently use has exonerated many people wrongly convicted. Sometimes very late in the process due to technology developments.
    Innocence and the Death Penalty: Assessing The Danger of Mistaken Executions | Death Penalty Information Center
    ďMr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.Ē ― Ron Paul
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  10. #210
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    Re: Death Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    I'd feel regret that this did not happen 20 years eariler...that is, of course, that the "found Jesus" is genuine..often, it is not..
    I fail to see what good comes from the DP (death penalty).
    I fail to see what good comes from keeping murderers locked up like animals, when they have killed another human, and have thus shown themselves to be a serious threat to society.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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