View Poll Results: What do you think gun control should be like?

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  • Let everyone have a gun

    26 26.53%
  • Quick background check to purchase and carry

    28 28.57%
  • Quick background check to purchase, but more difficult to carry

    12 12.24%
  • Background check, waiting period for purchase and carrying.

    19 19.39%
  • Background check, waiting period, no carrying

    5 5.10%
  • No guns at all

    8 8.16%
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Thread: Guns

  1. #361
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Turtle

    I know you love film. One of the truly great ones is the Steven Spielberg 1993 movie SCHINDLERS LIST. It details how the German Nazi's enacted their policies over the Jews of Poland in the 1930's and 40's. There is a scene near the end where Oskar Schindler is trying very hard to include as many Jews as he can on his list - Jews to be saved from death - and his right hand man - Itzhak Stern explains to him that the list is a pure good. In Jewish culture, this can also be known as a mitzvah, something which is so purely good that there is no negative attached to it.

    Do you believe that the Second Amendment as it is now seen in the USA is a pure good? Or do you see it as something with a good side and a bad side but where the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?


    In a perfect world, there would be little or no need for weapons. If all humans were benevolent we would not need to concern ourselves over self-defense.

    Using a weapon involves the threat of death or harm, or actual death or harm. I wouldn't call that a pure good, even if the purpose for using the weapon IS a pure good (protect my family from harm by an aggressor).

    But the world isn't perfect and never will be, nor will all humans ever be benevolent.

    Very very few things are mitzvah, pure good. Automobiles are not pure good; industry is not pure good; heck even food is not always pure good is it?

    Guns are not a pure good; however I see them as being strongly more of a good than a negative for a variety of obvious reasons.


    My Constitutionalist side tends to resent any infringements at all on the 2A.... however my pragmatic side recognizes that our society does a lot of things that are Constitutionally questionable and that sometimes compromise is better than the alternative. Therefore I grudgingly accept certain small infringements, like the National Instant Check System and CCW permits, as a compromise I can live with for the sake of the desire to make it harder for criminals to get guns, even if I doubt its actual effectiveness.

    I would not object to adding a red flag to NICs for those who have been involuntarily committed, for another example.

    In general though I think we have plenty of gun control laws already and don't need any more, and it would take considerable factual evidence of some new laws benefits to persuade me otherwise.

    Rights are not rights unless they are jealously guarded.
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-04-12 at 10:16 AM.

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  2. #362
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    In a perfect world, there would be little or no need for weapons. If all humans were benevolent we would not need to concern ourselves over self-defense.

    Using a weapon involves the threat of death or harm, or actual death or harm. I wouldn't call that a pure good, even if the purpose for using the weapon IS a pure good (protect my family from harm by an aggressor).

    But the world isn't perfect and never will be, nor will all humans ever be benevolent.

    Very very few things are mitzvah, pure good. Automobiles are not pure good; industry is not pure good; heck even food is not always pure good is it?

    Guns are not a pure good; however I see them as being strongly more of a good than a negative for a variety of obvious reasons.


    My Constitutionalist side tends to resent any infringements at all on the 2A.... however my pragmatic side recognizes that our society does a lot of things that are Constitutionally questionable and that sometimes compromise is better than the alternative. Therefore I grudgingly accept certain small infringements, like the National Instant Check System and CCW permits, as a compromise I can live with for the sake of the desire to make it harder for criminals to get guns, even if I doubt its actual effectiveness.

    I would not object to adding a red flag to NICs for those who have been involuntarily committed, for another example.

    In general though I think we have plenty of gun control laws already and don't need any more, and it would take considerable factual evidence of some new laws benefits to persuade me otherwise.

    Rights are not rights unless they are jealously guarded.
    I agree with pretty much with your comments. Well said.

    For any educated and intelligent person to so blindly believe in something that they cannot see that something which is mostly good is not purely a good in an of itself without having to acknowledge that bad or negative can arise from it, is a sad state of affairs and a sign of a self imposed value system at work that denies the reality of the world.
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  3. #363
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    ...In general though I think we have plenty of gun control laws already and don't need any more, and it would take considerable factual evidence of some new laws benefits to persuade me otherwise....
    the problem is that our gun laws are not uniform throughout the whole country. it is their ununiformity that allows folks to buy lots of guns in a pretty safe area, and sell them to criminals in a more dangerous area that has stronger gun laws.

    strong gun laws that strictly regulate gun sales, are kinda useless when one can simply buy guns across state-lines, and easily bring them over and sell them. we need gun law uniformity.

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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You have no clue what comprises them or how many there are. Glad to see all you have is out of context quotations, bigotry, emotionalizing, and demonizing left.
    your very adorable use of the word "bigotry", is very cute.

    since when did right-wing Militias become a protected group in our society? what's next, defending the KKK from harsh criticism & ridicule?

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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not at all. the Constitution (which includes the 2nd Amendment) makes no organizational notes whatsoever. the Militia Act merely provides for one. Here is some of the relevant language:...
    of course, you are WRONG.

    Article 1, Section 8 of the USC includes:

    ....To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrection and repel Invasions;

    To provide for the organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Miltia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and to the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.



    clearly, any intelligent & logical reading of the above, makes it clear that Congress has the power to organize, arm, & discipline the Militia. However, it is the job of the States to appoint officers who will train the Militia, according to the rules set forth by Congress.

    no organizational notes whatsoever? You're being dishonest.

  6. #366
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    your very adorable use of the word "bigotry", is very cute.

    since when did right-wing Militias become a protected group in our society? what's next, defending the KKK from harsh criticism & ridicule?
    Since when is the term "bigotry" only applicable to "protected groups" in our society? It's simply animosity or a devotion to intolerance of others.

  7. #367
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    your very adorable use of the word "bigotry", is very cute.

    since when did right-wing Militias become a protected group in our society? what's next, defending the KKK from harsh criticism & ridicule?
    What about the left-wing militias? You keep avoiding my point about this.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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  8. #368
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ...except, that, of course, they have been. How did you think the armies of the Civil War (for example) were created? Mostly it was just federalized militia units.
    no, our modern-day private armies of right-wing extremists, that you call "militias", have never been called up by the government to fulfill their Constitutional role, to defend the nation and suppress insurrections.

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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    In all fairness, your constantly changing what sort of additional hassles you want to impose on gun owners proves that the anti gun types have not really thought out what actually deters criminals...
    TD, this is a complicated issue. I am weekly bombarded with hundreds of posts, which sometimes contain new information which changes the dynamics of the issue. Plus I do research on my own on this issue. What is the effect of this? My views change. This issue is very fluid..and so are my views on it. Forgive me for not being hard-headed, unable to adjust my views based on new info, sworn to loyalty to my party's platform, unwilling to see things from another perspective.

    I make no apologies.

  10. #370
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    the problem is that our gun laws are not uniform throughout the whole country. it is their ununiformity that allows folks to buy lots of guns in a pretty safe area, and sell them to criminals in a more dangerous area that has stronger gun laws.

    strong gun laws that strictly regulate gun sales, are kinda useless when one can simply buy guns across state-lines, and easily bring them over and sell them. we need gun law uniformity.


    When the rest of the country wishes to adopt South Carolina style laws on guns, carry and self-defense, I will be most pleased to facilitate this.


    See this is where we run into trouble. I consider the NYC/DC/Chicago/Massachutsetts/etc model of gun control totally unacceptible.

    I will not tolerate having to have FOID just to own/possess guns. I will not tolerate laws that effectively ban handguns. I will not tolerate "discretionary-issue" (also known as shall-NOT-issue) carry permits. I will not tolerate being told I can't possess certain firearms because they cosmetically resemble military arms. I will not tolerate having to get a Psychologist to certify me as OK to possess firearms. I will not accept laws telling me all guns in my home have to be unloaded, locked up and ammo locked up seperately.... might as well say no guns for home defense at all.

    Lots of things people in those areas are burdened with that I wouldn't tolerate.


    If that's the "common sense gun control" you're preaching, you can keep it. We don't want it.



    Tell ya what though.... if I were running things in the South, I'd agree to institute a one-handgun-a-month law IF I could get National Reciprocity on CCW in return, so I can carry in NYC just like I do in SC....

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