View Poll Results: What do you think gun control should be like?

Voters
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  • Let everyone have a gun

    26 26.53%
  • Quick background check to purchase and carry

    28 28.57%
  • Quick background check to purchase, but more difficult to carry

    12 12.24%
  • Background check, waiting period for purchase and carrying.

    19 19.39%
  • Background check, waiting period, no carrying

    5 5.10%
  • No guns at all

    8 8.16%
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Thread: Guns

  1. #301
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes, those are polls. I am aware that over the past thirty years the percentage of those polled has changed. I do not take issue with that.

    What I am asking you is when the VOTERS decided this issue as you claimed.

    There is a difference with a distinction. The point is that the American people have never voted on this issue - nor will they since we are not a direct democracy.

    If it were popular among voters, politicians would openly support it. Notice that hardly any do.

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  2. #302
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    Re: Guns

    I haven't read past the first page and I'm sure this has boiled down to "guns bad", "no, guns good" arguments... but I'm going to give my opinion anyway, because I'm pushy like that.

    I went for the full background check with a waiting period to be sure the person is eligible, then let everyone except felons and mentally ill purchase and carry. I'll go further. I think once a person has legally purchased a weapon, I believe they should be able to carry it either open or concealed without additional permit.

    However... and it's a big one to a lot of gun owners... I want the loophole in gun show sales closed. Gun show sales should be subject to the same background check and waiting period as guns purchased in a shop. Individual sales of guns... one person to another... should be illegal. Instead, both people should be required to do the sale through a licensed gun dealer to assure a proper background check and make certain the seller is the registered owner of the gun.

    After that, I believe that all weapons up to heavy artillary should be legal to own for someone who has been properly vetted and licensed.

    So, having pissed off both sides with my views, I salute and say, "Carry on, folks!"

  3. #303
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    :
    I went for the full background check with a waiting period to be sure the person is eligible, then let everyone except felons and mentally ill purchase and carry. I'll go further. I think once a person has legally purchased a weapon, I believe they should be able to carry it either open or concealed without additional permit. l:
    The idea of a waiting period is not for those who pass a background check. The waiting period is some lame ass flopped idea that people get angry and go buy a gun and shoot someone. Of course this is unrealistic. The "cooling period" idea has been statistically shown to be irrelevant with 0 effects. Background checks are instant.

    I will say that I agree that you should have to wait until your background check is completed (and your fingerprints are confirmed on file with the FBI for concealed carry), but once that is done...if you get a concealed permit you shouldn't have to have a waiting period (and you don't in most states to my knowledge with a concealed license) and you shouldn't have the waiting period if you pass the background check.

    However... and it's a big one to a lot of gun owners... I want the loophole in gun show sales closed. Gun show sales should be subject to the same background check and waiting period as guns purchased in a shop. Individual sales of guns... one person to another... should be illegal. Instead, both people should be required to do the sale through a licensed gun dealer to assure a proper background check and make certain the seller is the registered owner of the gun.
    I am starting to come around to the idea of gun shows having to abide by gun dealer regulations. The reason is because it is a mass event, and it is essentially a firearms store. Not to mention many of the errors in gun sales occur here...instead of at stores where background checks etc are easy.

    I still agree with private sale. It is MY firearm. I should be allowed to sell it without an FFLD. Not to mention the sale of private arms by criminals will not be affected by a law like this. The very nature of their sale is already illegitmate.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  4. #304
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I haven't read past the first page and I'm sure this has boiled down to "guns bad", "no, guns good" arguments... but I'm going to give my opinion anyway, because I'm pushy like that.

    I went for the full background check with a waiting period to be sure the person is eligible, then let everyone except felons and mentally ill purchase and carry. I'll go further. I think once a person has legally purchased a weapon, I believe they should be able to carry it either open or concealed without additional permit.

    However... and it's a big one to a lot of gun owners... I want the loophole in gun show sales closed. Gun show sales should be subject to the same background check and waiting period as guns purchased in a shop. Individual sales of guns... one person to another... should be illegal. Instead, both people should be required to do the sale through a licensed gun dealer to assure a proper background check and make certain the seller is the registered owner of the gun.

    After that, I believe that all weapons up to heavy artillary should be legal to own for someone who has been properly vetted and licensed.

    So, having pissed off both sides with my views, I salute and say, "Carry on, folks!"
    Not pissed at all Di. I have no problem with background checks as long as the records are kept by the dealer and subject only to a subpoena if a crime is suspected using the model sold. The "loophole" isn't really a loophole at all, gun shows are attended by FFL and independent sellers and subject to the same laws pertaining to both, a FFL dealer at a show still must follow all protocol of filling out the federal check form and making the call to the ATF but those selling privately owned arms don't have to do that whether they sell from their home, in the mall parking lot, or at a gun show. Either sale is not legitimate if they feel that the person buying is doing so with the intent to commit a crime.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  5. #305
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    The idea of a waiting period is not for those who pass a background check. The waiting period is some lame ass flopped idea that people get angry and go buy a gun and shoot someone. Of course this is unrealistic. The "cooling period" idea has been statistically shown to be irrelevant with 0 effects. Background checks are instant.
    I understood that the background checks took time, and had to be done by a law enforcement agency to check for felony convictions, etc. Gun dealers wouldn't have access to those files. If I'm wrong, then I'm fine without the waiting period. I just want a FULL background check, including those with mental illness.

    I will say that I agree that you should have to wait until your background check is completed (and your fingerprints are confirmed on file with the FBI for concealed carry), but once that is done...if you get a concealed permit you shouldn't have to have a waiting period (and you don't in most states to my knowledge with a concealed license) and you shouldn't have the waiting period if you pass the background check.
    My feeling is that if a FULL background check is done at purchase, even if it takes a few days, then that gun belongs to that person and he/she should automatically be allowed to carry either open or concealed.

    I am starting to come around to the idea of gun shows having to abide by gun dealer regulations. The reason is because it is a mass event, and it is essentially a firearms store. Not to mention many of the errors in gun sales occur here...instead of at stores where background checks etc are easy.
    I agree with this.

    I still agree with private sale. It is MY firearm. I should be allowed to sell it without an FFLD. Not to mention the sale of private arms by criminals will not be affected by a law like this. The very nature of their sale is already illegitmate.
    Let me tell you why I feel that they should go through licensed dealers. We need to be able to track a gun through several owners, so if it ends up back at the scene of a crime, law enforcement has a tool. They should also have to be reported as stolen... law, not optional... and when a licensed gun dealer conducts the private sale, he would have the information available to make certain the gun has not been stolen and the registered owner is indeed the person who legitimately bought the gun.

    You know when storage bins are auctioned off, any firearms found there must be taken to a licensed gun dealer (the auctioneer will do it himself if he sees the weapon) to be registered to the person who bought the bin... same background checks apply. I think that's good. The idea is to track guns, like cars, from owner to owner via serial number. You have to notify the DMV if your automobile is sold or stolen, and when you purchase a car, even a used one. I think guns should be handled the same way.
    Last edited by DiAnna; 03-03-12 at 11:15 PM.

  6. #306
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I understood that the background checks took time, and had to be done by a law enforcement agency to check for felony convictions, etc. Gun dealers wouldn't have access to those files. If I'm wrong, then I'm fine without the waiting period. I just want a FULL background check, including those with mental illness.
    State dependent. My purchase took about 30 minutes, it's usually around 20-45 depending on how quickly you can accurately fill out the paperwork and how quickly the ATF can be contacted. Usually it takes longer on weekends as a lot of people are purchasing during off days and the phones get a little backed up. Waiting periods are typically state specific, they basically say the gun is yours but you can't have it until they say so, tends to be between 1-3 weeks. Louisiana doesn't have a waiting period so my property was in had as soon as the ATF issued the ok. New York I think is seven days, Cali takes IIRC two weeks.



    My feeling is that if a FULL background check is done at purchase, even if it takes a few days, then that gun belongs to that person and he/she should automatically be allowed to carry either open or concealed.
    I don't have a problem with a CCW requirement because any idiot can hide a gun, those who do so legally won't take that priviledge lightly and tend to have less gun charges than any catagory. The reason I don't mind CCW is that if a person is concealing with no license and stopped for another crime this gets someone off the street that may have used that weapon in a violent act. It's one of the small percentage of gun laws I actually think is workable and reasonable.





    Let me tell you why I feel that they should go through licensed dealers. We need to be able to track a gun through several owners, so if it ends up back at the scene of a crime, law enforcement has a tool.
    If a private sale is done correctly with a notary or witness and the numbers are put on a receipt it would still be pretty easy to track provided there is no tampering. If I sold my arms privately I would personally cover all bases just in case, don't really need a dealer for that. Basically if I were questioned I would show the notarized receipt with purchaser, serial #, and an emphatic "not me".
    They should also have to be reported as stolen... law, not optional... and when a licensed gun dealer conducts the private sale, he would have the information available to make certain the gun has not been stolen and the registered owner is indeed the person who legitimately bought the gun.
    Here's the thing I don't like about a mandatory report, some people may not realize their guns are stolen until it becomes a questioning issue, there was a movement to force reporting within 24 hours of theft but that leads to further issues such as "How am I supposed to know my weapon was stolen exactly 24 hours ago or less?", "What if it's stolen while I'm away and I can't find out during the window?", "Even though it's a good idea to report a stolen weapon, I don't like ultimatums" things like that.

    I will say that I would report if my gun was stolen for my own self-preservation, my biggest concern is to have my weapon used in a crime and having to answer police questions about it and I would hate for someone to misuse my weapon to injure an innocent(but I take responsibility for my property). FFL dealers to my knowledge are not allowed to conduct a private sale, even their own guns. One other thing, many stolen arms tend to become "filed guns" that is the serial numbers are removed to prevent tracing them back to a crime, which is a second and very serious federal charge.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 03-03-12 at 11:34 PM.
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  7. #307
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Years ago, one could support gun owners rights and still lobby for legislation on the subject. That is no longer possible in this current political environment which has taken a hard right turn. For some - and I say some and not all or even a majority - the First Amendment has supplanted the Second Amendment regarding gun rights in that their devotion and love of firearms is far closer to a religious like fervor based on willful belief than anything else. And right from little many are taught it is dangerous and nonproductive to mess with peoples religious beliefs.

    Once upon a time, when we had mass killings in which firearms were involved, rational people discussed it and ideas for legislation were introduced and debated. We just saw three young people slaughtered in Chardon, Ohio and instead of spurring national discussion, those who want to do so are charged with using dead children to promote an agenda which is never identified.

    There simply is no current environment for rational discussion on this topic.
    years ago some people actually bought the lies that those who wanted more gun control were actually trying to stop crime rather than either pretending they were tough on criminals or they wanted to hassle honest gun owners

    right now there is so much evidence that anyone who claims that additional restrictions that impact honest gun owners are needed for crime control is easily seen as a liar, dishonest or a complete moron

  8. #308
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    actually yes, there is. or there was.

    The Constitution, the 2nd Amendment, and the various Militia Acts by Congress clearly spell out the framework of The Militia. And The Militia was eventually done away with in 1903, with The Militia Act of 1903, which formalized the National Guard, to take over the responsibilities of the civilian Militia.

    Militia Act of 1903 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    There was a federally regulated militia (the one of which you speak), state regulated miltias and citizen regulated militias (like the ones we have around today).

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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  9. #309
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If it were popular among voters, politicians would openly support it. Notice that hardly any do.
    We could argue that forever without coming to any definitive conclusion. One could argue that the public support for sensible gun measures in previous decades hardly translated into the same level of legislation before public opinion shifted a bit.

    My point was a simple one - your statement about the voters deciding this is simply not true.
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    years ago some people actually bought the lies that those who wanted more gun control were actually trying to stop crime rather than either pretending they were tough on criminals or they wanted to hassle honest gun owners

    right now there is so much evidence that anyone who claims that additional restrictions that impact honest gun owners are needed for crime control is easily seen as a liar, dishonest or a complete moron
    It is talk like that which poisons any true discussion and keeps decent and moderate people away from the extremists who tend to dominate those type of discussions with their all or nothing black or white view of the issue. People quickly learn that arguing with a religious zealot is a dead end street that is very unrewarding.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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